Being Mindful of Mind States

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

mikenz66 wrote:I (and others here) assumed that when you said "mind states" you meant the third satipatthana:
A rough, but useful, alternative translation would be "mood". It's because "mood" tends to last for quite a while (minutes, hours, days...) that I said that it is difficult to catch it changing. Whereas thoughts, memories, etc, as you say, float past, and are clearly changing. (Those would, I think, belong in the fourth satipattahana.)
Yes, that's how I was thinking of it. Mind states as the 3rd foundation of mindfulness, what I think of as the "background state" of the mind which may persist for longer periods of time and change more slowly. As opposed to mental objects, the 4th foundation of mindfulness, eg thoughts and feelings which arise and pass more quickly.

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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

Hi guys. Sorry about not responding sooner.

I went back and listened to the first half of Ajahn's dharma talk repeatedly since yesterday. The central point he was trying to make is that mind-states are composed of 3 factors, mainly- which he referred to as feeling, perception (of meaning) and then he used a pali word i couldn't catch, sounded likesankara? He purposefully used that term in a limited way to refer to reflexive patterns of activity that arise psychologically- in our minds- prior to our carrying the behaviors out. Here's the first 14 minutes of the talk...



I took some notes (below) to try and clarify, because sometimes Ajahn used terms (like feeling) in more then one way. Also, while he talked of "feelings" as being first he later said they are triggered by perceptions, so here the 3 factors are again with a bit more detail, and reordered, putting perceptions first, feelings second and response patterns third.

Mind-States are made up of 3 Inter-related factors

1) Perception- We take in information from our environment and interprete its meaning, to us- friendly/unfriendly, safe/threatening

2) Feelings- Once we have arrived at a perception of meaning feelings are triggered, chemical rush of emotions such as pleasure, displeasure, fear, anger, sadness, joy, etc.

3) Response Patterns - Our feelings and perceptions then activate response patterns, what to do, how to react and respond to the situation. Flight or fight, argue, go lie down, push away, hug, scream, walk out the door. These are patterns of behavior which first arise in the mind and then activate actions in the world.


He then goes on in the talk (linked in the OP) to speak about how our role as meditators and practitioners is to observe these psychological factors arising and learn to *not* react, not act in knee-jerk ways, recognize also how a sense of "self" is created by the above- through our identification with these states of mind.

The MRI scans I presented of brain patterns relates to all the above but most closely to this last area, and also how our minds shift into different feeling/perception/activity patterns throughout the day...

BUT my point was tangential and is not as important as Ajahn's focus here, imo. Please just ignore these images if they are not helpful and don't fit with your understanding.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Sanghamitta »

Its an interesting tal Christopher, but you have inserted something...... " in our minds" These factors feelings, perception and then the response, simply arise. They ARE mind states. They shift ...which is actually more like an ocean wave which gives impetus to the next ocean wave . These processes do not happen in our minds. To all intents and purposes they ARE our minds. Do you see ? Another way od considering this is to look at the way that the Canon describes the kandhas ( skandhas in sanskrit ).
Awareness does not consist of seeing these processes with our "minds".
It is the arising of bare attention directly.It is awareness that enables the acting or not acting.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
rowyourboat
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by rowyourboat »

It is possible to remain focused on these mental qualities such as feeling, perception and reaction/sankhara:

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'

with metta

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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

Hi. While there are some differences in the words we're using to describe this, it sounds like we're all pretty much on the same page. Key thing is to observe mind states carefully, have insights and so that one eventually gains "freedom" from the patterns of feeling, perception and reactive behaviors that create suffering and difficulties for us, right?

Freedom from fetters, attachments, aversions- our hindrances...

Do you have any specific examples (that you might wish to share) where this approach has been successful, where a troublesome pattern from the past "died off" - no longer continues to arise, or if it arises you see it for what it is now, no longer go with it? Any really difficult patterns you've been working on but haven't been able to unravel or gain insight into yet?

I used to get angry with my wife when she would get angry with me (perceiving her words as an attack on my "self"), and then go with a "fight" pattern of argument, being defensive of "my" positions that i have thankfully gained greater freedom from. She still gets angry and says things but i'm now usually calmer, don't percieve the attack personally and no longer over-react by arguing vigorously with her. I do respond, but not in the same way I did with speech patterns fueled by anger.

On the other hand, the mind-states that lead to overeating are something I've yet to "see" with complete clarity and release successfully.
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Christopher,

It is an interesting discussion- I have had so many old patterns wiped out I have lost track of it. I used to get anxious, used to doubt myself, used to worry too much - but it has all changed over the past few years. However one thing is certain- watching a la satipattana sutta is not enough- you need to do the 'pahana sanna' as well- ie wipe it out of your mind.

[5] "And what is the perception of abandoning? There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill-will. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of harmfulness. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. This is called the perception of abandoning.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope that is helpful.

with metta

Matheesha
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

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rowyourboat wrote:
[5] "And what is the perception of abandoning? There is the case where a monk does not tolerate an arisen thought of sensuality. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of ill-will. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate an arisen thought of harmfulness. He abandons it, destroys it, dispels it, & wipes it out of existence. He does not tolerate arisen evil, unskillful mental qualities. He abandons them, destroys them, dispels them, & wipes them out of existence. This is called the perception of abandoning.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hope that is helpful.
Thanks for that!

With certain patterns that's happened for me as well. I just look at it, see it as a problem/trouble, and don't tolerate it. With others though the habit is tolerated, or it's not tolerated for awhile then allowed, pushed away, allowed, like a yo yo.

Have you ever experienced that, with a thought/behavior habit that you know is not helpful, and yet some part of you doesn't want to let go?
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Christopher

Yes, of course- its part of the 'terrain'. Habits of thought, are often just tolerated- this is the reason they continue. The Buddha said that what one thinks over and over again, that becomes an inclination of the mind (forget the name of the sutta). Then it is just those 'inclinations' we are wiping out.

with metta

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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Sanghamitta »

They are sometimes compared to an echo which persists after the original sound wave has passed....
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

Yes, yes, yes..!

BTW, just came upon this related talk, from Ajahn Brahm. He's so funny sometimes!



:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

rowyourboat wrote: The Buddha said that what one thinks over and over again, that becomes an inclination of the mind (forget the name of the sutta).
I remember being quite alarmed when I first started meditating and realised how habitual my thought processes really were.

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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by rowyourboat »

Pansadhovaka Sutta: The Dirt-washer
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2010
The traditional title for this sutta is Sangha Sutta

"There are these gross impurities in gold: dirty sand, gravel, & grit. The dirt-washer or his apprentice, having placed [the gold] in a vat, washes it again & again until he has washed them away.

"When he is rid of them, there remain the moderate impurities in the gold: coarse sand & fine grit. He washes the gold again & again until he has washed them away.

"When he is rid of them, there remain the fine impurities in the gold: fine sand & black dust. The dirt-washer or his apprentice washes the gold again & again until he has washed them away.

"When he is rid of them, there remains just the gold dust. The goldsmith or his apprentice, having placed it in a crucible, blows on it again & again to blow away the dross. The gold, as long as it has not been blown on again & again to the point where the impurities are blown away, as long as it is not refined & free from dross, is not pliant, malleable, or luminous. It is brittle and not ready to be worked. But there comes a time when the goldsmith or his apprentice has blown on the gold again & again until the dross is blown away. The gold, having been blown on again & again to the point where the impurities are blown away, is then refined, free from dross, pliant, malleable, & luminous. It is not brittle, and is ready to be worked. Then whatever sort of ornament he has in mind — whether a belt, an earring, a necklace, or a gold chain — the gold would serve his purpose.

"In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk — aware & able by nature — abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence.

"When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint.

"And then whichever of the higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening.

"If he wants, he wields manifold supranormal powers. Having been one he becomes many; having been many he becomes one. He appears. He vanishes. He goes unimpeded through walls, ramparts, and mountains as if through space. He dives in and out of the earth as if it were water. He walks on water without sinking as if it were dry land. Sitting crosslegged he flies through the air like a winged bird. With his hand he touches and strokes even the sun and moon, so mighty and powerful. He exercises influence with his body even as far as the Brahma worlds. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening.

"If he wants, he hears — by means of the divine ear-element, purified and surpassing the human — both kinds of sounds: divine and human, whether near or far. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening.

"If he wants, he knows the awareness of other beings, other individuals, having encompassed it with his own awareness. He discerns a mind with passion as a mind with passion, and a mind without passion as a mind without passion. He discerns a mind with aversion as a mind with aversion, and a mind without aversion as a mind without aversion. He discerns a mind with delusion as a mind with delusion, and a mind without delusion as a mind without delusion. He discerns a restricted mind as a restricted mind, and a scattered mind as a scattered mind. He discerns an enlarged mind as an enlarged mind, and an unenlarged mind as an unenlarged mind. He discerns an excelled mind [one that is not at the most excellent level] as an excelled mind, and an unexcelled mind as an unexcelled mind. He discerns a concentrated mind as a concentrated mind, and an unconcentrated mind as an unconcentrated mind. He discerns a released mind as a released mind, and an unreleased mind as an unreleased mind. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening.

"If he wants, he recollects his manifold past lives (lit: previous homes), i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction and expansion, [recollecting], 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure and pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus he remembers his manifold past lives in their modes and details. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening.

"If he wants, he sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening.

"If he wants, then through the ending of the mental effluents, he remains in the effluent-free awareness-release and discernment-release, having known and made them manifest for himself right in the here and now. He can witness this for himself whenever there is an opening."
With Metta

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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by christopher::: »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: The Buddha said that what one thinks over and over again, that becomes an inclination of the mind (forget the name of the sutta).
I remember being quite alarmed when I first started meditating and realised how habitual my thought processes really were.

Spiny
Definitely.
rowyourboat wrote:Pansadhovaka Sutta: The Dirt-washer
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2010

excerpt:

"In the same way, there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, speech, & mind. These the monk — aware & able by nature — abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities: thoughts of sensuality, ill will, & harmfulness. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence. When he is rid of them there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste, thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence.

"When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Re: Being Mindful of Mind States

Post by PeterB »

rowyourboat wrote:It is possible to remain focused on these mental qualities such as feeling, perception and reaction/sankhara:

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five clinging-aggregates? There is the case where a monk [discerns]: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'

with metta

Matheesha
Thats it. Its discernment of arising. Not analysis.
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