Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

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Paññāsikhara
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Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:25 am

Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Sorry, was that before the Big Bang?

"In the scheme that I'm proposing, you have an exponential expansion but it's not in our aeon - I use the term to describe [the period] from our Big Bang until the remote future.

"I claim that this aeon is one of a succession of such things, where the remote future of the previous aeons somehow becomes the Big Bang of our aeon."

This "conformal cyclic cosmology" (CCC) that Professor Penrose advocates allows that the laws of nature may evolve with time, but precludes the need to institute a theoretical beginning to the Universe.

...

"In the standard Big Bang model, there's nothing cyclic; it has a beginning and it has no end.

"The philosophical question that's sensible to ask is 'what came before the Big Bang?'; and what they're striving for here is to do away with that 'there's nothing before' answer by making it cyclical."


(Emphasis added)

Perhaps our local physicists can provide some further insights on this theory within the field.
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Ben
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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby Ben » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:30 am

Thank you Bhante.
I remember the Dalai Lama saying the same thing about three years ago in Melbourne.
kind regards

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saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby christopher::: » Sat Nov 27, 2010 11:33 am

Hello Venerable,

I read an interesting article on a theory of "Multiple Universes" in Scientific American, during the 1990s. I think this illustration was from that issue, but cannot find the article itself presently. I do remember being intriqued by this image, and their theory that Universes give birth to Universes, in a very organic way....

Image

It does provide a nice explanation for the riddle of why our Universe has so many natural laws and regularities. Puts a new spin to the ideas of Rebirth and Multiple Lives as well...

:namaste:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby cooran » Sat Nov 27, 2010 8:52 pm

Hello all,

These may be of interest:

Cosmology and meditation: from the Agganna-Sutta to the Mahayana Buddhism - Rupert Gethin
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha190.htm

in examining the discourses of the Buddha, we notice that he has made interesting statements about the origins of the universe and life, and the place of human existence in the big scheme of things. It would seem that such statements provide a context for the liberation teachings of the Buddha, and though not essential to the central task of freedom, are not antithetical to it as long as we hold them lightly. What did the Buddha say about the universe? Well, he spoke of the universe in terms of myriad cakkavalas or disk-shaped "galaxies" each made up of thousands and tens of thousands of planets, moons, and suns, as well as of vast regions of dark space interspersed between them where no light exists. He spoke of the beginningless and endless nature of the universe, where no beginning can be seen to the endless wandering of beings through the cycle of samsaric suffering. He spoke of the expansion and contraction of the universe over long periods of time called kappas, and that the march of time itself is infinite. He spoke of the multiple planes or dimensions of experience possible for beings, ranging from the most intense states of suffering to the most refined bliss of meditative absorption. These planes are worlds of lived experience where external objective world reflects the internal subjective mind, and vice-versa. He spoke of the Four Noble Truths that are timeless and universal truths about our lived experience under the sway of delusions and the possibility of unconditional freedom from such constricted living. In particular, he spoke about that unconditional freedom of nibbana that is beyond opposites, duality, suffering and its causes, and where consciousness is signless (anidassanam), boundless (anantam), and all radiant (sabbato-pabbham.)
http://accessingbuddhism.blogspot.com/2 ... chive.html

Re: Science-Expansion/Contraction of the Universe?
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5838&start=0#p91078

with metta
Chris
Last edited by cooran on Sun Nov 28, 2010 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Nov 28, 2010 2:51 am

Hi Venerable,
Paññāsikhara wrote:Perhaps our local physicists can provide some further insights on this theory within the field.

I'll ask some people who've actually worked with CMB data tomorrow, but I had a look at the paper and there are some interesting technicalities. Basically, if the universe has been expanding and contracting then there could be large-scale correlations (from different parts of the sky) that would not have developed from a single big bang (due to the finite speed of propagation of light). This paper claims to show such correlations, but of course there are always technical issues with such analyses that will be argued about for some time. Since the inflationary model dates from about 1980 and the "dark energy" claims from the late 90's we were about due for another reinterpretation, and it may be useful to remind people that the whole idea of science is to make new theories and rubbish old ones... That's what makes it fun... :tongue:

:anjali:
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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby Individual » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:39 am

Paññāsikhara wrote: the remote future of the previous aeons somehow becomes the Big Bang of our aeon."

This would seem to mean that we "sentient beings" are actually more like ghosts of beings that lived long ago.

For some, such an idea might be very unsettling.
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Kim OHara
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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:05 am

Individual wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote: the remote future of the previous aeons somehow becomes the Big Bang of our aeon."

This would seem to mean that we "sentient beings" are actually more like ghosts of beings that lived long ago.
For some, such an idea might be very unsettling.

Anyone who *enjoys* ideas like this - but doesn't take them too seriously - could do worse than read 'River of Gods' (2005) by Ian McDonald: very good science fiction, with an Indian setting, extreme physics, a new human gender, water wars and much more.
:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby JeffR » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:02 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Perhaps our local physicists can provide some further insights on this theory within the field.

I am NOT a physicists. Although I take a strong interest in it and am an armchair fan.

This theory makes perfect sense to me, I felt this to be true for quite some time. Applying fractal mathematics and extrapolating; I would expect there to be cyclical universes, similar to a pendulum in a vacuum sans gravity.

Then I read in a sutta the Buddha saying something like, 'There have always been universes, expanding and contracting, and there will always be universes, expanding and contracting; one following another with no beginning and no ending.'

Seems what mathematics predicts was confirmed by the Buddha 2.5 millenia ago.

Nice to see Science may be discovering proof now too.

:buddha2:

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby cooran » Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:53 am

Then I read in a sutta the Buddha saying something like, 'There have always been universes, expanding and contracting, and there will always be universes, expanding and contracting; one following another with no beginning and no ending.'


Jeff - Can you give a traceable link, or a reference, to where the Buddha mentioned this?

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:10 am

I dont understand how this could work. To have time you need space and distance. If everything is in one place during the big crunch, there is no time because everything in the universe is gathered at one point. there is no space and distance because there is only one "object". What does "before" mean in this frame of reference? How could time be measured through such an event, because in effect, without space and distance, time stops. Doesnt it?
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby Paññāsikhara » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:27 am

m0rl0ck wrote:I dont understand how this could work. To have time you need space and distance. If everything is in one place during the big crunch, there is no time because everything in the universe is gathered at one point. there is no space and distance because there is only one "object". What does "before" mean in this frame of reference? How could time be measured through such an event, because in effect, without space and distance, time stops. Doesnt it?


Well, I think that the title is a little tongue in cheek, in that this new theory is kind of saying that there was no absolute zero-point beginning from which the big bang emerged in the first place. That's my hunch.
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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:12 am

Hi Venerable,
Paññāsikhara wrote:Well, I think that the title is a little tongue in cheek, in that this new theory is kind of saying that there was no absolute zero-point beginning from which the big bang emerged in the first place. That's my hunch.

Yes, that was my impression reading the actual paper. A bunch of expansions and contractions, without the singularity that some other models have at the "beginning". Unfortunately I haven't yet managed to discuss it with anyone who specialises in this stuff...

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:23 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Well, I think that the title is a little tongue in cheek,


idk about that
Professor Penrose, of Oxford University, and his colleague Vahe Gurzadyan of Yerevan State University in Armenia, have now found what they believe is evidence of events that predate the Big Bang, and that support CCC.


sounds pretty literal to me.
"When you meditate, don't send your mind outside. Don't fasten onto any knowledge at all. Whatever knowledge you've gained from books or teachers, don't bring it in to complicate things. Cut away all preoccupations, and then as you meditate let all your knowledge come from what's going on in the mind. When the mind is quiet, you'll know it for yourself. But you have to keep meditating a lot. When the time comes for things to develop, they'll develop on their own. Whatever you know, have it come from your own mind.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby JeffR » Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:14 pm

cooran wrote:
Then I read in a sutta the Buddha saying something like, 'There have always been universes, expanding and contracting, and there will always be universes, expanding and contracting; one following another with no beginning and no ending.'


Jeff - Can you give a traceable link, or a reference, to where the Buddha mentioned this?

with metta
Chris

Unfortunately, no. I've read numerous Dhamma books, most of which will have passages of translations of sutta's. I remember reading something along these lines. My 'quote' is not completely accurate, just the jist of what I recall, hence the single quotation marks.

I'll do a search to see if I can find reference, but don't have much time to spend searching.

Thanks,
-Jeff

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby JeffR » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:09 pm

I did a search on Access to Insight and found this:

DN 1
PTS: D i 1
Brahmajāla Sutta: The All-embracing Net of Views
translated from the Pali by
Bhikkhu Bodhi
© 2010 . . .
.
.
.
39. "There comes a time, bhikkhus, when after the lapse of a long period this world contracts (disintegrates). While the world is contracting, beings for the most part are reborn in the Ābhassara Brahma-world.[7] There they dwell, mind-made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And they continue thus for a long, long period of time.
40. "But sooner or later, bhikkhus, after the lapse of a long period, there comes a time when this world begins to expand once again. While the world is expanding, an empty palace of Brahmā appears. Then a certain being, due to the exhaustion of his life-span or the exhaustion of his merit, passes away from the Ābhassara plane and re-arises in the empty palace of Brahmā. There he dwells, mind made, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, moving through the air, abiding in glory. And he continues thus for a long, long period of time.

The complete sutta translation quoted above can be found here:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.01.0.bodh.html

Another reference to contracting and expanding Aeons:
§ 22. {Iti 1.22; Iti 14}
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, don't be afraid of acts of merit. This is another way of saying what is blissful, desirable, pleasing, endearing, charming — i.e., acts of merit. I am cognizant that, having long performed meritorious deeds, I long experienced desirable, pleasing, endearing, charming results. Having developed a mind of good will for seven years, then for seven aeons of contraction & expansion I didn't return to this world. Whenever the aeon was contracting, I went to the realm of Streaming Radiance. Whenever the aeon was expanding, I reappeared in an empty Brahma-abode. There I was the Great Brahman, the Unconquered Conqueror, All-seeing, & Wielder of Power.

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Re: Cosmos may show echoes of events before Big Bang

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:04 pm

Here's a technical blog on the subject, but it's not much use if you don't already have some idea of how the data is analysed in terms of spherical harmonics:
http://motls.blogspot.com/2010/11/what- ... -have.html

However, you can get some idea from this diagram (larger version is available in the blog):

Image
This is the WMAP spectral graph above, including the L=40 bump, as seen and presented by the "science journalists". All the context and sensible quantitative perspective on the "big picture" is totally erased and an infinitesimal bump is suddenly promoted to a proof that "upends" inflationary cosmology if not the Big Bang theory itself. ;-)

Most people are just way too gullible.


Mike


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