Looking for a term.

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Looking for a term.

Postby Jason » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:25 am

I seem to recall there being a word that's used to describe rare people who are incapable of ever reaching awakening. Does anybody know what it is and where it's from (e.g., sutta, commentary, etc.)?
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby lojong1 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:33 am

Don't know. Is it the same as an 'eternal-hasnamuss-individual'?
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby Paññāsikhara » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:34 am

Jason wrote:I seem to recall there being a word that's used to describe rare people who are incapable of ever reaching awakening. Does anybody know what it is and where it's from (e.g., sutta, commentary, etc.)?


Skt: icchantika
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby Goofaholix » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:39 am

Jason wrote:I seem to recall there being a word that's used to describe rare people who are incapable of ever reaching awakening. Does anybody know what it is and where it's from (e.g., sutta, commentary, etc.)?


They are known as the Tea Party Movement.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:47 am

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Jason wrote:I seem to recall there being a word that's used to describe rare people who are incapable of ever reaching awakening. Does anybody know what it is and where it's from (e.g., sutta, commentary, etc.)?


Skt: icchantika
Which is a Mahayana concept.; I do not believe there is a Theravadin equivalent that I have ever seen. If there is, it would be likely very late and likely an import.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby cooran » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:23 am

Hello Jason, Tilt, all,

I'm checking with dsg friends, and will let you know if there is anything further from a Theravada perspective.

with metta
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:25 am

cooran wrote:Hello Jason, Tilt, all,

I'm checking with dsg friends, and will let you know if there is anything further from a Theravada perspective.

with metta
Chris
They know everything over there, do they?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby Nyana » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:15 am

tiltbillings wrote:I do not believe there is a Theravadin equivalent that I have ever seen. If there is, it would be likely very late and likely an import.

Buswell mentions the Theravāda idea of ekantakāḷaka from the Abhidhamma Puggalapaññatti and its commentary here.
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:27 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I do not believe there is a Theravadin equivalent that I have ever seen. If there is, it would be likely very late and likely an import.

Buswell mentions the Theravāda idea of ekantakāḷaka from the Abhidhamma Puggalapaññatti and its commentary here.
And just when you think there is nothing new to know.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=hu0oIf0n87IC&pg=PA119&lpg=PA119&dq=Buswell%20icch%20antika&source=bl&ots=F6SnPbbueo&sig=5X7OxzQd_we4vOvFjk40YAeXUzw&hl=en&ei=aa_PTK%20jnF9Gyngfkw8iNBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false : icchantika
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby cooran » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:52 am

tiltbillings wrote:They know everything over there, do they?


Obviously not tilt! :tongue:

I've just given them the last two links.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby Jason » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:20 pm

Paññāsikhara wrote:
Jason wrote:I seem to recall there being a word that's used to describe rare people who are incapable of ever reaching awakening. Does anybody know what it is and where it's from (e.g., sutta, commentary, etc.)?


Skt: icchantika


I think that was it, although I didn't realize it was a Mahayana concept. Thanks for your help everyone.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby convivium » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:00 pm

A Padaparama is an individual who, though he
encounters a Buddha Sàsana, and though he puts forth
the utmost possible effort in both the study and practice
of the Dhamma, cannot attain the Paths and the Fruits
within this lifetime. All that he can do is to accumulate
good habits and potentials (vàsanà).

http://www.noblepath.info/recommended_b ... ayadaw.pdf
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby hamsa » Sun Nov 28, 2010 4:47 pm

In the Mahāsaccakasutta there is a formula “abhabbā va te ñāṇāya dassanāya anuttarāya sambodhāya”: they are incapable (abhabba) of knowing, seeing and of the ultimate awakening. It speaks about those have not withdrawn from sense-pleasures, thus it is not an intrinsic handicap but a result of lack of practice.
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Nov 28, 2010 6:46 pm

Jason wrote:I seem to recall there being a word that's used to describe rare people who are incapable of ever reaching awakening. Does anybody know what it is and where it's from (e.g., sutta, commentary, etc.)?
Yes, apart from Padarama individuals, there is another much more common type.

I remember a talk given by Chanymay Sayādaw at the London Buddhist Vihāra in Chiswick many moons ago. He said words to this effect:

There is one person here who is incapable of realising nibbāna. Shall I tell you who it is?

... Deadly silence as everyone thinks, “Don't tell everybody about me.”



...








...








...















...










It is the lazy person. The lazy person is incapable of realising nibbāna.
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Re: Looking for a term.

Postby yuttadhammo » Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:42 pm

The term padaparama is discussed in the Puggalapaññatti:

katamo ca puggalo padaparamo? yassa puggalassa bahumpi suṇato bahumpi bhaṇato bahumpi dhārayato bahumpi vācayato na tāya jātiyā dhammābhisamayo hoti ayaṃ vuccati puggalo "padaparamo".

And what person is meant by padaparama? When, though a certain person hears much, preaches to much, bears in mind much, speaks much, there is not penetration of the truth in that life, this is said to be a person who is "padaparama".

Puggalapaññatti (catukkapuggalapaññatti)


The commentary to this passage says:

Byañjanapadameva paramaṃ assāti padaparamo. Na tāya jātiyā dhammābhisamayo hotīti na tena attabhāvena jhānaṃ vā vipassanaṃ vā maggaṃ vā phalaṃ vā nibbattetuṃ sakkotīti attho.

The mere word made up of letters is the highest (attainment) for him, thus he is padaparama. The meaning of "na tāya jātiyā dhammābhisamayo hoti" is that there is not the potential for the production of jhaana, vipassana, magga or phala by that incarnation (attabhaava).

Puggalapaññatti-aṭṭhakathā Catukkaniddesavaṇṇanā


It is clear, though, that this sort of being may attain these states in a future existence. DA says, for example:

tattha tiṇṇaṃ puggalānaṃ imasmiṃyeva attabhāve bhagavato dhammadesanā atthaṃ sādheti, padaparamānaṃ anāgate vāsanatthāya hoti.

Therein, the Blessed One's exposition of the dhamma clarifies the meaning in this very life for three persons. It is for the purpose of predisposition in the future for the padaparama.

DA Mahāpadānasuttavaṇṇanā


The term abbhaba is discussed in the Vibhanga:

"katame sattā abhabbā? ye te sattā kammāvaraṇena samannāgatā kilesāvaraṇena samannāgatā vipākāvaraṇena samannāgatā assaddhā acchandikā duppaññā abhabbā niyāmaṃ okkamituṃ kusalesu dhammesu sammattaṃ, ime te sattā abhabbā.

Which beings are the incapables? Whatever beings possess the obstruction of deeds, who possess the obstruction of defilements, who possess the obstruction of retribution, who are faithless, uninterested, of little wisdom, are unable to enter into the way of rightness in regards to wholesome realities, all such beings are incapables.

Vibhaṅga (ñāṇavibhaṅgo, mātikā, dasakaniddeso)
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