Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Wu-Wei
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by Wu-Wei »

E-Sangha has definitely got some major problems.

Not all Dharma forums are that bad. Still, sectarianism ( playing favourites ) is undoubtedly a problem.

Spiritual pride is said to be among the greatest of sins.

Metta.
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cooran
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by cooran »

Wu-Wei wrote:E-Sangha has definitely got some major problems.

Not all Dharma forums are that bad. Still, sectarianism ( playing favourites ) is undoubtedly a problem.

Spiritual pride is said to be among the greatest of sins.

Metta.
And very few are that good either. Strange post you make Wu-Wei - for a first post to a new forum. You could well take to heart your last sentence.

karuna
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appicchato
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by appicchato »

DarkDream wrote:...it would be useful to list some books there and the possibility that it would be reserved for the monks to reply there (I don't know if this is feasible at all).
Reading this, to me, seems to imply that monks are the most knowledgeable...which, take it from me, is not (necessarily) the case...my ability to quote suttas, abhidhamma, or even string two coherent sentences together, is lost in the dust compared to some of those (good lay followers) found on these pages...if it resonates, instructs, or 'enlightens', it doesn't matter the source...

Be well...everyone... :smile:
nathan
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by nathan »

Wu-Wei wrote:E-Sangha has definitely got some major problems.

Not all Dharma forums are that bad. Still, sectarianism ( playing favourites ) is undoubtedly a problem.

Spiritual pride is said to be among the greatest of sins.

Metta.
Ah, more grapes. There is a thread on that. Read it and move on. People seem as keen to fixate on idealistic perfection and permanence on the internet as they ever were.

Are you promoting attachments to particular kinds of temporary, unsatisfactory and essence-less things (in this case internet forums) and that they should be some particular way or not somehow is what buddhism is about? I suspect that this is the perception only in the event that the thinking is that buddhism is all about someone or something else's being and becoming somehow that is the main concern. I am confident that human beings will steadfastly continue to refuse all external efforts to conform them. So I think that kind of thinking leads to permanent discontent. The discontent is great (bring it to fullness and completion with all things, it takes a load off), projecting discontent is always like farting in an elevator, justified or not it stinks.

Those who seem to "get" the primary concerns of buddhism think that it is all about understanding their particular and personal "being and becoming". Anytime someone suggests that social conditions "should be" X,Y or Z or that 'so and so' or 'such and such' should be X, Y or Z then I think they are missing the whole point as well. The point as I see it is to simply know what is X, Y or Z when it arises and know what is X, Y and Z when it ceases; all of this in an effor to free oneself from the being and becoming, not to change the the whole world somehow on that basis. Whatever good comes of being a buddhist comes to that person first and for the rest of the world may come to have some meaning as a result or it may not. How altruistic or how selfish people are is up to everyone as individuals and doesn't always present a moral dilemma. Whatever other choices and determinations people make is up to them and these may be on the basis of one's buddhistness or on the basis of their beingness. People who have problems with buddhism or buddhists would have the same problems anywhere. People who have found solutions in buddhism have those solutions anywhere.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
Individual
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by Individual »

Element wrote:Dear Forum,

I have gained the impression the Buddhist on-line community has been scattered due to sectarianism.

For beginners or newcomers, there is no net to catch them (apart from E-Sangha).

All of these various new sites such as DhammaWheel do not rate highly on the Google list.

How can beginners start with the right steps?

What do we think?

:group:
Variety and diversity is a good thing. The Dhamma is spread through right speech and mindfulness. You can only control your own right speech and your own right mindfulness. Trying to spread the Dhamma through propaganda and proselytizing is like the story of the king who wanted to cover the world with leather to protect his feet. What he should do, his counsel suggested, was wear shoes (the point of contact between him and the ground).

I do not think Buddhists should be trying to trap people in nets of any kind. That is a subtle form of proselytizing. It's what could be called "passive" or "passive aggressive" proselytizing. An active or aggressive proselytizer is one who goes door-to-door, stands on the street corner, goes on radio and TV, and belittles and attacks every view he disagrees with, whenever he comes across it, like a hunter with a gun or a bow & arrow. A passive aggressive proselytizer instead sets up communities and organizations (both online and offline) where they can gather with like-minded people, and while they are respectful or ambivalent towards other views outside of these gatherings, maybe even within the gatherings to some extent, in the cases where they gather, they do not allow freedom of opinion, the types of views critical of theirs, and will tend to attack and belittling views they disagree with. This is like a hunter who lays traps. In either case, the activity is the same, whether actively hunting or laying traps, but the manner in which it is done is slightly different, more subtle.

It has often been said that Buddhists are not dogmatic or sectarian, and it isn't true. The way they are dogmatic is simply very cute, compared with western religion. In western religion, dogmatics and sectarians simply blatantly say to your face, "You're an idiot, a heretic, and you're going to hell." With Buddhist dogmatics and sectarians, they might hold the same view, but don't explicitly state it, and it's simply subtly implied by what they say they believe... In the open, they are respectful to one another, but in private circles, among like-minded people, or hidden within the literature they publish, suddenly the respect for other views ceases to exist.

For a similar mindset, as an analogy: I once told my father of a psychology experiment where researchers intentionally bumped into people in major cities to see how they reacted (apologetically or rudely). They found a sharp contrast between New York City and London, whereas New Yorkers tended to react more rudely, Londoners tended to react more apologetically. I told my father of this (who is British), and he said that doesn't mean English people are nicer, only superficially more polite. They'll be deeply apologetic, then walk 10 feet and mutter to themselves, "Friggin' clumsy idiot". When it comes to religious dogmatism, western religion has more of the mindset of the New Yorker, but Buddhist dogmatics tend to have the mindset of the superficially polite English.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Individual
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by Individual »

When it comes to worrying about others' wrong views and my own, my own are far more important. In the long-run, wrong views will take care of themselves, because by being in conflict with reality, they plant the seed for their own destruction. And right views will take root, because by being in accordance with reality, they contain the seed of their own transcendence. Even if the whole world were destroyed and all of humanity was gone, there would still be right view and the capacity to distort it, to create wrong views.

I find that the most successful way for the Dhamma to be spread is through thoughtful, sincere, humble one-on-one discussions among friends, in which neither side has an agenda. When a person proselytizes, whether subtly or blatantly, it tends to cause people to retract. So, even if your view is the right one, you're not going about it in an effective way.

If you develop enough virtue, I think it would become all the more clear how worthless proselytizing is. Because with virtue, you can end up with thousands of people worshiping you and following you around, like the character, Brian, in Monty Python's Life of Brian. People like virtue because it is a rare thing. If you could follow all of the Vinaya rules, joyously, and devote yourselves in every moment to the good of others, anyone who knew you would be so inspired by your life and hang on your every word.

...But instead of doing this, we'd rather set up some crafty online community, googlebomb to get it to #1, and set up attack-sites to "spread the word" about our enemies. :rofl:
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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retrofuturist
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Wu-Wei,
Wu-Wei wrote:E-Sangha has definitely got some major problems.

Not all Dharma forums are that bad. Still, sectarianism ( playing favourites ) is undoubtedly a problem.

Spiritual pride is said to be among the greatest of sins.

Metta.
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

Please familiarise yourself with the Terms Of Service: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - particularly in relation to the badmouthing of other forums.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by nathan »

Individual wrote: It has often been said that Buddhists are not dogmatic or sectarian, and it isn't true. The way they are dogmatic is simply very cute, compared with western religion. In western religion, dogmatics and sectarians simply blatantly say to your face, "You're an idiot, a heretic, and you're going to hell." With Buddhist dogmatics and sectarians, they might hold the same view, but don't explicitly state it, and it's simply subtly implied by what they say they believe... In the open, they are respectful to one another, but in private circles, among like-minded people, or hidden within the literature they publish, suddenly the respect for other views ceases to exist.
I think that is a superficial read of people of every kind. What makes a noble being noble is non-sectarian and what makes someone aspire to be a noble being is not dependent on a sectarian process or it is not happening at all. I might say someone is speaking idiocy because they have said something idiotic. It wouldn't make me sectarian, it would make me blunt and harsh speaking.
Individual wrote: For a similar mindset, as an analogy: I once told my father of a psychology experiment where researchers intentionally bumped into people in major cities to see how they reacted (apologetically or rudely). They found a sharp contrast between New York City and London, whereas New Yorkers tended to react more rudely, Londoners tended to react more apologetically. I told my father of this (who is British), and he said that doesn't mean English people are nicer, only superficially more polite. They'll be deeply apologetic, then walk 10 feet and mutter to themselves, "Friggin' clumsy idiot". When it comes to religious dogmatism, western religion has more of the mindset of the New Yorker, but Buddhist dogmatics tend to have the mindset of the superficially polite English.
Again, this is all reaching. It is like painting over a billboard with a thin lacquer, does it change the picture? Not much. Does it penetrate the truth in that image? Not at all.

Would it be so disappointing if a lot of buddhists did turn out to be wonderful people as well? Whether they speak sweetly or bitterly or not? Would it be so disappointing if underneath the proselytization of anything there existed some-thing(s) of value? Not really, something has value or not for each person that values it or doesn't.

If I bump into an Londoner or a New Yorker why should I be surprised at any kind of reaction to my lack of mindful attention? Even if they bump into me from behind and then curse me as they pass, why should I give it even a moments thought? That is their perception and their expression. I probably only see a busy and crowded street where many people are bumping about and doing or saying whatever they are apt to be doing or saying. Whether they are buddhist or somethingelseist doesn't have much to do with the wandering around and bumping into each other or how much civility anyone displays.

Any politeness or civility I have reflexively arises from my childhood conditioning and is modified by ongoing social conditioning. Any real self restraint I do or don't have is a product of my self discipline or a lack thereof and I may or may not apply that discipline to the given circumstances. Those two variables alone are enough to make an external appraisal of the overall makeup of my nature impossible to gather from any amount of external observations of my expressed forms of social behaviors and interactions. People can appear a given way because they are that way or they aren't that way but want to appear that way or because they have no choice but to appear that way but aren't actually that way but some other way. So even why people appear to be this way or that way can have all or nothing to do with what they be.

Buddhists are generally exposed to the idea that all of this appearance is illusory. That is a pretty basic notion of buddhism. It is pretty much a given amongst long term buddhist practitioners of all kinds. So buddhists probably generally appear quite dismissive of the issues arising from concerns about appearances. Buddhists will want to get at why appearances arise at all and are not as directly focused on appearances arising in any particular forms to the exclusion of other forms. To the extent that they are concerned with what arises in a buddhist sense it is a non sectarian concern that is not based on how someone else feels about their appearances or how they feel about someone else's appearance. Those are all societal concerns that buddhists share with all other beings in a shared world.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Wu-Wei,
Wu-Wei wrote:E-Sangha has definitely got some major problems.

Not all Dharma forums are that bad. Still, sectarianism ( playing favourites ) is undoubtedly a problem.

Spiritual pride is said to be among the greatest of sins.

Metta.
Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

Please familiarise yourself with the Terms Of Service: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - particularly in relation to the badmouthing of other forums.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Damn Buddhachat!

*shakes fist*
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Individual,

I guess the rules say nothing about forums that don't exist any more... :rofl:

It's a shame there was no transfer of ownership in that instance.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Individual
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by Individual »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Individual,

I guess the rules say nothing about forums that don't exist any more... :rofl:

It's a shame there was no transfer of ownership in that instance.

Metta,
Retro. :)
For some reason, I have the distinct feeling that Brandon may have become a Christian under the influence of his new girlfriend, or at least turned away from it out of being belittled by her... but my wisdom is weak, and that's just a shot in the dark. It's most likely a mental fabrication, but it would be amusing if (as my wild imagination has, occasionally in the past) it turned out to actually be true. In any case, like most pseudo-Zen Buddhist westerners, present company included, Brandon apparently didn't take Buddhism very seriously the entire time he was an alleged "Buddhist".

Also, I suspect that Buddhachat will be back, several months or years in the future. When he finds that his wife is also dukkha, he will be back.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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Wu-Wei
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by Wu-Wei »

retrofuturist wrote: Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

Please familiarise yourself with the Terms Of Service: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - particularly in relation to the badmouthing of other forums.
Retro ...

Are there any on-line Buddhist forums of which you are NOT a "moderator"? :rules:

As far as my comments go, they address the thread topic head on:
Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism
:focus:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Wu-Wei,
Wu-Wei wrote:Are there any on-line Buddhist forums of which you are NOT a "moderator"? :rules:
Of course... in fact, every single one except for this one.
Wu-Wei wrote: As far as my comments go, they address the thread topic head on:
Destruction of Buddhist on-line community via sectarianism
Well, if it's not possible for us to discuss this topic without breaching the Terms Of Service, the thread will have to be closed. Hopefully it won't come to that as I'm sure there's plenty of scope within the TOS for a sensible discussion on the subject.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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