Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Discussion of Satipatthana bhavanā and Vipassana bhavana.

Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:53 pm

jd84 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: If you hear statements like 'bhanga (nana) is the reason why people keep coming back' you would know in an instant that that statement has nothing to do with bhanga nana.


hi RYB, I think I read the post that you are quoting from and I think there might be some crossed wires somewhere. I could be wrong but I get the impression that what that guy was talking about (the reason why people keep coming back to goenka courses) is a dissolution of the surface of the body ie "a free flow of sensations from head to feet." This of course isn't bhanga nana but is a very pleasant experience (so I have been told) that people can attain quite quickly if they take well to this technique.

And to clear another thing up.... I think Goenka says that around one third of a retreat should be dedicated to anapana.

metta

jon


Hi Jon

Perhaps you weren't listening when Mr Goenka said repeatedly "do not make a game of sensations", or when he advised students not to seek "something special", and warned of the dangers of being seduced by pleasant meditative experiences. Perhaps some freshly minted old-students return to try for the experience of bhanga-nana but they soon find, if they are practicing correctly, that all experiences are dukkha, experience nibbida and develop strong samvega. And if they progress and continue to return for 10-day (or longer) courses it is because of the enormous benefit they receive as a result of doing those courses and daily practice.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby jd84 » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:06 pm

Ben wrote:
jd84 wrote:
rowyourboat wrote: If you hear statements like 'bhanga (nana) is the reason why people keep coming back' you would know in an instant that that statement has nothing to do with bhanga nana.


hi RYB, I think I read the post that you are quoting from and I think there might be some crossed wires somewhere. I could be wrong but I get the impression that what that guy was talking about (the reason why people keep coming back to goenka courses) is a dissolution of the surface of the body ie "a free flow of sensations from head to feet." This of course isn't bhanga nana but is a very pleasant experience (so I have been told) that people can attain quite quickly if they take well to this technique.

And to clear another thing up.... I think Goenka says that around one third of a retreat should be dedicated to anapana.

metta

jon


Hi Jon

Perhaps you weren't listening when Mr Goenka said repeatedly "do not make a game of sensations", or when he advised students not to seek "something special", and warned of the dangers of being seduced by pleasant meditative experiences. Perhaps some freshly minted old-students return to try for the experience of bhanga-nana but they soon find, if they are practicing correctly, that all experiences are dukkha, experience nibbida and develop strong samvega. And if they progress and continue to return for 10-day (or longer) courses it is because of the enormous benefit they receive as a result of doing those courses and daily practice.



Hello there Ben,

more wires crossed by the looks of it and maybe I should have left you guys to it. I'll try and explain myself...

I wasn't talking about myself there, someone in an earlier post had written that he thought people kept coming back to the 10 day courses because of bhanga nana. I was just trying to explain to RYB that I thought he was using the term bhanga nana incorrectly (he probably meant people keep coming back because of the free flow). I wasn't commenting on whether its right or wrong to strive for special experiences or saying that I think that's what people tend to do at goenka courses. Was just speculating on what said bloke had really meant.


No games of sensation... agreed

People come back as a result of the enormous benefits from courses and daily practice.... agreed


Hope that made some sense... Apologies if you still don't understand !

Jon
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:57 pm

no problem, jon!
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:01 pm

Ben wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Goenka in my opinion is introductory practice.


Well, that's an interesting comment.

A couple of quotes to ponder...

From Day 3 of the ten-day course:
SN Goenka wrote:May all of you be successful in taking the first steps on the path of liberation


From Day 4 of the ten-day course:
SN Goenka wrote:You have taken a first step on the path to liberation...

...You have started taking dips in the Ganges of Dhamma within,


From Day 9 of the ten-day course:
SN Goenka wrote:You have taken a first step towards eradicating your defilements


From Day 11 discourse:
SN Goenka wrote:In ten days one can get only a rough outline of the technique; one cannot expect to become perfect in it so quickly. But even this brief experience should not be undervalued: you have taken the first step, a very important step, although the journey is long—indeed, it is a lifetime job...

...A seed of Dhamma has been sown


In part of the instructions of a ten-day course, Goenkaji says "this is the kindergarten of Dhamma". And as can be seen from above, SN Goenka doesn't claim that what he teaches, in a ten-day course, is anything but an unequivocal introduction. That point would have been clear to you had you ever done a ten-day course.


Hi Ben

No I admit to not having done a 10 day or longer Goenka course, nor have I ever felt the need to. My experience is based on teaching vipassana (non-Goenka) to students and see them gradually develop along the vipassana nanas. Mr.Goenka does seem to say that the 10 day course is introductory from your above quotes. But I ask you- does he teach anything other than the Body scan even in his 'advanced' satipatthana courses?

with metta

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:04 pm

Matheesha, we have known each other a number of years both here and formerly at E-Sangha. During that time, I have noted your simmering aversion to SN Goenka and yet your criticisms of his, or more correctly U Ba Khin's, method is based on ignorance. Its not a very strong position in which to criticise another teacher and it only highlights your own inadequacies.

BTW, Ledi Sayadaw's Vipassana Dipani - it isn't exactly a meditation manual.


I have tried my best to find a 'manual of vipassana' from Ledi Sayadaw, U Ba Khin, or Goenka which outlines the development of the insight knowledges in line with how they unfold -and I have failed.

If you find one please let me know.

with equanimity

Matheesha
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Theravadidiliana » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:04 pm

Hi all, long time reader of this forum.

I have also had quite a bit of Goenka's sweeping method of Vipassana experience. Been a long term server, pali student at Dhamma Giri, swept Goenkaji's bedroom floor, dusted his Nike's, sat lots of courses. I once got really interested in the stages of insight when I found out about them. I did some research within the Goenka/U ba khin tradition to see if they were explained in more detail.

I found this reference on this forum by some former Goenka meditator with a chip on his shoulder. He posted it there from a book printed and published in Myanmar if Im correct. Here is the link. http://vipassana.awardspace.info/forum/ ... topic=25.0
It is at the bottom of the page after this guy posted the discourses of the 30 day from memory. Jeesh! The quote below is part of a discourse by a teacher in the U Ba Khin tradition (Not Goenka but Mother Sayama I think). it seems to reference U Ba Khin describing the nanas.

[Knowing Anicca And The Way To Nibbana, Page 241, Day 8, Morning Discourse - continued]

"The other view is that there is something permanent. Even though we die, according to this wrong view, something permanent goes on. Here again we can observe that what has gone has gone. There is no such thing as a permanent element. The old physical properties have nothing to do with the new properties. They are different things. Now, what is it that causes the new physical properties to arise? They arise because of kamma. Observing this, we can conclude that there is nothing permanent transferred after death. We can make some progress in knowing this to be true. What is actually left after death is this force of kamma that gives rise to rebirth. It is not we who are reborn. But how are we connected with that other one? We are connected by the means of kamma. As soon as the mind moment ceases at the time of death, the law governing conditioned states is such that there is no gap in between death and rebirth. The next consciousness after death is the new consciousness, the rebirth consciousness. This is the way in which you might say it is not we who are reborn, but rather, it's just a reflection of our past deeds that gives rise to a new existence.

A long time ago, during Sayagyi's time, someone asked, "If that other person isn't my self, then why should I worry about that person?" All we need to do to find the answer is to look back in the past, and we will find that it's because of the deeds of that so-called "other person" in previous lives that we are here now, and because of those deeds we are suffering. In this way we can come out of our wrong views to some extent.

Most of us are struggling at this stage of observing the becoming and dissolution aspect of our existence, the udaya-bbaya stage. This stage is a sort of base on which further progress can be founded. First, there is the preliminary understanding - that is to say, theoretical knowledge. And then, the higher understanding within the same field. It is during this process of understanding rise and fall that the ten hindrances may come. These hindrances are called upakkilesas, and they are a very mild form of defilement. They aren't gross or intense types of defilements. Lights may come, for example, or joy comes, or pleasurable feelings. Sometimes knowledge comes. Your intelligence seems to be very sharp. As a result, effort increases. You just want to go on sitting and sitting. Sometimes equanimity comes also. It seems there are no more attachments. Sometimes, there are people who get so equanimous they think they have reached the goal.

This is when you need a teacher who understands and who can tell you that this is just a hindrance to further progress, that you should disregard these things and go on observing anicca and contemplating all these hindrances also, to see whether they are permanent or not. It is very simple - when you come to that stage, you just try to think of anicca. If you can think of anicca, then it isn't the final stage yet! When you eventually come to the final stage, then the object of contemplation will no longer be on the conditioned; it will be on the unconditioned state, where you can never think of anicca or dukkha. That type of consciousness won't arise. So you can make the test very easily.

When this udayabbaya stage grows, you come to a higher understanding of arising and vanishing than usual. You come to the understanding of the underlying physical properties of sensations-hardness and softness, for example. The physical properties of hardness and softness aren't known to the particles that are combining momentarily and manifesting these properties. It is consciousness that knows them as sensations. Touch-consciousness arises as resultant kamma. It is a consciousness without any roots. When you concentrate on a certain spot, your mind door goes there by means of concentration. Because of that concentration, touch-consciousness arises as the resultant. You must contemplate that, observe the behavior of that sensation. When your udayabbaya knowledge has developed to a high degree, then you find these sensations smoothly and evenly. There seem to be no obstructions, and you lose the concept of the conventional aspect of the sensations. You see only in terms of absolutes: not in terms of hands and feet, but in terms of hardness or movement.

At first, the sensations are very slow, but at this stage they become very quick, because you are seeing them in a more concentrated way. This becoming-and-dissolution process quickens. You can go through the body quite easily. As you go on with this, you see more clearly the dissolution aspect. But even if you don't see that aspect, you shouldn't worry. Go on seeing the becoming aspect, for the dissolution aspect is inherent in the becoming aspect. Death is inherent in birth. Eventually, the time will come when your concentration will be good and you still see more of the dissolution process; wherever you probe, sensations seem to disappear.

At times this is the way you observe your sensations: you look at a sensation, you think in terms of anicca, it has gone. You look again, it has gone. In that way, you observe and know your sensations repeatedly. These tingling sensations, for example, you may think of as very tiny little particles fluctuating. There may come a time when you actually experience them as they disappear; they are breaking off, breaking away, just like sand falling down from a cliff. Everything seems to be dissolving. If you see in this way, then you know that you have come to the stage of bhanga-nana.

The stage of knowledge of dissolution (bhanga-nana) is simply the emphasis on the fact that nothing is permanent. It proves how wrong this view is that there is something permanent. When this state is seen clearly, and when you see that all things are dissolving, then it doesn't take you long to see that these things are a sort of danger and that these aggregates aren't nice-there is danger inherent in them because you cannot depend on them.

At this stage also, fear sometimes arises. Not the fear of death, but the fear that the aggregates aren't dependable. This knowledge removes the idea of non-danger, that there can be any safety in the aggregates. We don't think that there is any danger because we feel that our body is quite strong. We are very attached to our body. We don't realize that at every moment dying takes place. Normally we don't see that, but at this stage we see that everything is constantly falling apart.

Once we realize the danger inherent in these phenomena, these five aggregates, then the attachment to them-thinking of them as something desirable - goes away. There is a change of attitude. Now, the attitude is that these phenomena aren't desirable. At this stage we have developed the attitude that these phenomena which we call ourselves are in reality undesirable. They cannot be depended on. They are always subject to change. And that is why they aren't desirable.

Slowly, you're cutting off the attachment to self and trying to see the suffering (dukkha) inherent in the aggregates - the subtle dukkha, not the painful aspects of dukkha (dukkha-dukkhata, known in Myanmar as "double dukkha"). Everyone knows that painful feelings are undesirable. But the dukkha we are trying to understand is called viparinama-dukkhata, which means dukkha because of constant change.

Then you continue to contemplate these things from the point of view of change (anicca), suffering (dukkha), or no- self (anatta). You use whichever of these three is the most perceptible to you. Usually, it's anicca that is most perceptible to us. At this stage, it's like someone who can't swim whose boat capsizes near the shore and who sees a dead body floating there in the ocean. He will hold on to that dead body even though it's undesirable. He knows it's a dead body, but he can't let go or he'll sink and drown.

This is that stage. You know it's undesirable, but you can't let go either. You can't stop. If you stop, you sink. So you must go on contemplating the changing nature of the aggregates, again and again. Try your best to reach the shore. Once you're there, you will be able to disregard that body and let go of it. Even though you see the undesirable aspect, you must keep on contemplating with the aid of anicca.

Then comes a state of boredom, being sort of fed up. Usually, there isn't much physical dukkha at this stage, so boredom sets in. The students must make more effort, develop more concentration at this stage. In that way, it will be possible to overcome this boredom. The desire to escape from the undesirable will come. You want to escape from all this. When that urge arises, you have to continue contemplating the five aggregates-actually, one aggregate will do. Any one of the five. You can concentrate on the physical aspect, or you can concentrate on the aspect of sensations or on perceptions. For the most part, we concentrate on the sensations. So keep knowing anicca.

Then comes the stage where you make an additional effort. The desire to escape has arisen. Not to escape from the pain, but from these phenomena you are experiencing. So you put in further effort. Then the anicca aspect becomes clearer.

Next comes the ability to view all conditioned states (sankharas) with an equanimous attitude, with neither attachment nor with displeasure. At this stage (sankharupekkha-nana) you don't have to make any special effort in order to experience these sankharas. It is almost automatic, and you can view them, observe and contemplate them, for quite a long time without any change in your mental attitude. This stage is free from all obstacles to attaining the stage of entering the Path (magga). Once you have come to this stage of Equanimity-Knowledge Regarding Conditioned States, if you haven't aspired in the past for some special attainment, there is no barrier to going on to the higher states, because the stage of Adaptation-Knowledge (anuloma-nana) will follow. This is the stage supporting the attainment of the Path stage.

Sayagyi U Ba Khin used to give the example of a person hanging on a rope attached to the branch of a tree [1]. He is swinging and trying to get across a stream. So he is swinging and trying to gain enough momentum to be able to let go of the rope and reach the other side. When he has gained enough momentum and he feels sure that he can reach the other side, then he lets go of the rope. This is when one comes to the gotrabhu stage, where the object of contemplation changes. Up to this point, the object of contemplation is conditioned states (sankharas). At the gotrabhu stage, the object of contemplation is directed towards the unconditioned state, the stage of the Path (magga).

This, then, is how we can understand theoretically the way in which Vipassana enables us to realize this Truth of Suffering."

Goenka mentions the 4th nana in the 10 day course: Udayabbaya, (Arising and Passing) where perhaps a free-flow of subtle vibrations throughout the body are felt, perhaps a bit of bliss, lights, fireworks. Lot's of zeal is gained after this experience. The majority of longtime servers I would speculate are longterm servers because of the 4th nana. It makes one into quite the "searcher". Lot's of yogis I've talked to have gotten this far in the Goenka traditon. And then directly after going on about this, he mentions Bhanga nana, the 5th nana (dissolution) where the body is seen as just a mass of vibrations and only the end of vibrations are seen. Then after this, Goenka mentions the arising of the "sleeping defilements" which are the big "bhavo sankharas" which come to the surface to cause havoc in one's life. I can only assume he is talking about the dukkha nanas (6th, 7th, 8th 9th and 10th nanas) which follow the 5th nana like the cart follows the horse. That is as far as he gets in a 10 day. There is also a book called the "Sayagyi U Ba Khin Journal" , (you can find a copy here : http://www.dhammabooks.com/contents/en-uk/d9.html

In it, there is reference to the nanas, from 1st up until the 11th nana (sankharaupekkha). I can't remember the page it is on, but it is there. Just not in great detail like in anything by Mahasi Sayadaw. The sweeping method as taught by Goenka , if taken seriously and if anicca is paid attention to in ALL sensations, at all times, and ALL sensations are seen as "not-self", no "I", no "me", no "mine" as Goenka repeats often, then any meditator can get up to the 11th nana with some effort, using soley the sweeping method. It was my experience and the experience of several other Goenka yogis I know. I speculate that lots of yogis do get that far. The danger of not progressing further is perhaps getting sidetracked, bored, wandering off into lalaland, not paying attention to annica at all times, reacting to sensations thus identifying with them as part of an illusory self etc.. But the sweeping method , if Goenka's instructions are followed to the T at all times, will result in moving up through the nanas. You just need to be very committed to seeing all sensations as is, without letting the mind get distracted by and identified with the mental content that arises. Hope this helps.
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:46 am

Hi Theravadidiliana and welcome to Dhamma Wheel!
Good to see another long-term student of SN Goenka on board.
As a matter of interest, when were you at Dhammagiri? It would have to have been since my visit as pali language courses were being introduced in the year following my stay.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Theravadidiliana » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:56 am

Hi Ben,

I was in Igatpuri from August 2002 until about Juneish 2003. I was away from Dhamma Giri during the Teacher's self course that year, went and did a 20 day in Jaipur, then went on the Myanmar Yatra with Goenkaji and co for a month, and took robes for a couple of weeks. It was a very special time indeed. Made some great friends, spent everyday immersed in all things Dhammic, got sick a bit, had lots of cool adventures as you do in India, and did the pilgrimage. Probably one of the better years of my life. I was quite hardcore at that stage. Aaaagh to be a long termer again. Thems were the days. ;)
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Ben » Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:04 am

Ok, I was at Dhammagiri 89/90 during the Indian Winter program. At that stage it was the only centre offering 30 day and longer courses so it was very busy with lots of long term westerners and ATs. I did the Teacher Self Course and few more ten day courses, lots of serving. Transcribed the discourses of the 45 day course.
I hope you get other opportunities to sit long courses and to serve.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Sanghamitta » Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:56 am

Welcpme Theravadidiliana.
....Dhammagiri 87....I gather it has expanded a lot.
:anjali:
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:58 pm

Hello Theravadidiliana

Thank you for your long email. That has clarified a lot. I was surprised at how difficult it is to find this information from a tradition that teaches vipassana. But I feel now that you have laid my concerns to rest. Sayagyi U bha kin is certainly speaking 'correctly' and speaks to me.

I hope there are no hard feelings with anyone, especially Ben who I consider to be a friend on the internet. I can see that Sayagyi U Bha kin certainly knows what he is talking about.

I hope many will learn the ways of vipassana from him and his disciples.

with metta

RYB/Matheesha
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metta

Postby prem » Thu Dec 02, 2010 6:11 pm

metta
Last edited by prem on Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Dec 02, 2010 8:11 pm

Thanks Prem,

It's interesting to see how rapidly Mahasi Sayadaw's approach migrated to Thailand, and it is also interesting to compare the document with Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight. http://aimwell.org/Books/Mahasi/Progress/progress.html
This document seems to be based on Mahasi Sayadaw's, but in the Venerable's own words and some of his particular observations.

:anjali:
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:00 pm

Thanks Prem,- it is rare to come across descriptions of these nanas so this is worth its weight in gold.

with metta

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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby nibs » Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:32 pm

An Ode to the Ñanas

Skin itches and mind bitches,
Thoughts shape and entice.
Bubbling chest, thoughts unrest,
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Past regrets revelry,
Bubbling chest gets heavy.
Thoughts trapped in agitation net,
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Vibes and pains and vibes and aches,
There was never any control for frack’s sake.
Heavy chest, you suck!
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Heavy chest, let’s shine the light,
Vibrating heavy, vibrating delight.
Body bursting and mind is high,
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Fast and revolving, and losing hold,
Nothing stable , slightly troubled.
Dissolving makes the head go round,
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

What…? Where..? Who is there?
Oh god, so primal. Sweaty palms.
Anxiety makes the tummy grumble,
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Awoken dragon, breathing fire,
Body burning with desire.
Avert! Avert! Depression sounds,
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Body, mind so bitter-sour,
Life takes on the state of dour.
Disenchantment reigns the day,
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Mind wants out! Enough is had!
Cries for freedom, longing, mad.
Must escape this hell in “me”!
And "I" am nowhere in the mix.

Misery walls, misery moat.
Fort of misery, misery catapult.
Buckle your belt, and hold your ground,
As "you" are nowhere in the mix.

Head above the current tow,
All a flux and all a flow.
Dissipated, wide and calm,
And there is no-one in the mix.

Head still above the shifting tide,
The key is turned, the door swung wide.
The senses cut, the kill switch flicked,
A “Self” was never ever in the mix.

:)
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Dec 03, 2010 9:12 pm

;) :thumbsup:
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:15 pm

Dear RYB,

Metta,

I guess partly you are confusing Bhanga Nana with Bhaya / Adinava Nana which is what instills fear etc. At bhanga stage while it is a real awakening and displays the anatta nature it may not immediately instill fear. It may also be true that some who feel that they experiance a total disolution are only feeling subtle sensations at the surface. But this is not mistake of the system but the person himself.

People go back to the course (which is very rigid in discipline) not because of just enjoying subtle sensations (as somebody suggested) since, sensations are in nobody's control but, because of the benefits it gives. I think in another thread you only stated that there are several possible stream entrants from Goenkaji's system that you know of because of their deep understanding of dhamma.

Also from what you state, it seems that the Mahasi system gives greater emphasis on Jhana while in Goenkaji's teachings it is only an aid to final goal.

Would request you to attend one course with full trust in it (without mixing it with what you do - may also require some unlearning, which is difficult) even Dalai Lama has said that Goenkaji's method is very good and has sent several lamas for learning it from time to time. This could also be due to the vibrations of Goenkaji's voice which I personally feel has very good dhammic vibrations due to the great dhamma service done by him in his lifetime (not many people who you can compare to him in world perhaps in terms of teaching dhamma and to all class of people - prison inmates to scientists to priests, lamas, householders, students, children, businessmen - all classes & religions)

I know for a fact that the method is correct - brings peace, releases kilesas, why dont u try it with an open mind :smile:

By condemning it or seemingly condemning it, you are only generating bad kamma and may end up disuading somebody from the path - which might be worse.

Metta

Parth.
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby robertk » Tue Dec 28, 2010 6:52 am

parth wrote:Dear RYB,

even Dalai Lama has said that Goenkaji's method is very good and has sent several lamas for learning it from time to time. This could also be due to the vibrations of Goenkaji's voice which I personally feel has very good dhammic vibrations due to the great dhamma service done by him in his lifetime (not many people who you can compare to him in world Parth.

Can anyone clarify if that is correct about the dalai lama and mr Goenka?
There was this letter from the Office of H. H. the Dalai Lama a couple of years back , that was posted on the internet, but perhaps this has been sorted out since then ?

Dear*********,

Thank you for your email of December 1, regarding the article by Norman Fischer about an interview he had with Goenka-ji. I am afraid most of the conversation that is purported to have taken place between Goenka-ji and His Holiness are not true. Moreover, the event leading to the meeting that he is referring to, if it did take place, took place some twenty-five or thirty years ago! I was present with His Holiness at that public function for the followers of Dr. Ambedkar.

I was also present when His Holiness the Dalai Lama did meet Goenka-ji some years ago in Maharashtra, not very far from Mumbai. At the time they discussed about teaching meditation and Buddhism in India, but that had nothing to do about Tibetan lamas going to attend Goenka-ji's courses on meditation.

With best wishes,

Tenzin Geyche Tethong
Secretary to H.H. the Dalai Lama

Office of H. H. the Dalai Lama
Thekchen Choeling
McLeod Ganj - 176 219
Dharamsala, H.P.
INDIA

Tel.: +91 (1892) 221343, 221879, 221210
Fax: +91 (1892) 221813
Email: ohhdl@dalailama.com
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby Sambodhi in Oz » Tue Dec 28, 2010 3:00 pm

Well have attended several 10 day courses over last 12 years and and in almost each of those buddhist monks were present. Though I do not know whether they were from Hinayana / Mahauana/ others. In the same interview Goenkaji did mention that that meeting with HH Dalai Lama happened in the year he moved to India so therefore would have been 1970's probably.
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Re: Vipassana - Insight Knowledge

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:56 am

Hi Parth,

I hope I have not given you the wrong impression- I am not saying that Geonka's meditation method is not beneficial. It is, and many things in this world are. But the Buddha Dhamma is more than .. words fail me so... All I am saying is that if Goenka is to make this method more than just a meditation technique he will have to give a clear description of the vipassana nanas and show how it applies to the development and progress of the body scan.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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