Dear Friends,
Is there a sutta where the Buddha said that arupa Dhayana are NOT mandatory for Nibbana?
Arupa Jhana
Re: Arupa Jhana
Try this analysis:
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
Re: Arupa Jhana
From the above article:
"The faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are the lowest members of a sevenfold typology of noble persons mentioned in the Nikāyas as an alternative to the more common scheme of "the four pairs of persons," the four path-attainers and the realizers of their respective fruits.[18] The seven fall into three groups. At the apex are the arahants, who are distinguished into two types: (i) "both-ways-liberated" arahants (ubhatobhāgavimutta), who gain release from the taints together with deep experience of the formless attainments; and (ii) "wisdom-liberated" arahants (paññāvimutta), who win release from the taints without such experience of the formless attainments. Next are three types in the intermediate range, from stream-enterers up to those on the path to arahantship. These are: (iii) the body-witness (kāyasakkhī), who has partly eliminated the taints and experiences the formless attainments; (iv) the view-attainer (diṭṭhippatta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on wisdom; and (v) the faith-liberated (saddhāvimutta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on faith. Any disciple at the six intermediate stages -- from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship -- can fall into any of these three categories; the distinctions among them are not determined by degree of progress but by mode of progress, whether through strong concentration, wisdom, or faith. Finally come the two kinds of anusārī (vi-vii), who are on the path to stream-entry."
"The faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are the lowest members of a sevenfold typology of noble persons mentioned in the Nikāyas as an alternative to the more common scheme of "the four pairs of persons," the four path-attainers and the realizers of their respective fruits.[18] The seven fall into three groups. At the apex are the arahants, who are distinguished into two types: (i) "both-ways-liberated" arahants (ubhatobhāgavimutta), who gain release from the taints together with deep experience of the formless attainments; and (ii) "wisdom-liberated" arahants (paññāvimutta), who win release from the taints without such experience of the formless attainments. Next are three types in the intermediate range, from stream-enterers up to those on the path to arahantship. These are: (iii) the body-witness (kāyasakkhī), who has partly eliminated the taints and experiences the formless attainments; (iv) the view-attainer (diṭṭhippatta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on wisdom; and (v) the faith-liberated (saddhāvimutta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on faith. Any disciple at the six intermediate stages -- from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship -- can fall into any of these three categories; the distinctions among them are not determined by degree of progress but by mode of progress, whether through strong concentration, wisdom, or faith. Finally come the two kinds of anusārī (vi-vii), who are on the path to stream-entry."
Re: Arupa Jhana
From all that has been discussed and is discussed about jhana's and their necessity for this or that I conclude that the crucial thing is the direct experience of a (temporary) difference. Consequently if there are other means (states of mind) to entail that experience then these may replace jhana completely. This is my conclusion for the time being.
Kind regards
Kind regards
Re: Arupa Jhana
TMingyur,
That's an intriguing idea. However, it's not completely clear to me what you mean. Perhaps you could elaborate and/or give an example of such a state of mind?
That's an intriguing idea. However, it's not completely clear to me what you mean. Perhaps you could elaborate and/or give an example of such a state of mind?
Re: Arupa Jhana
SN 12.70 - Susima SuttaDazzy wrote:Is there a sutta where the Buddha said that arupa Dhayana are NOT mandatory for Nibbana?
Re: Arupa Jhana
What I mean is the experience of a difference between the ordinary state that is entangled in afflictions and delusions and states not so entangled. Since this in this context necessarily is a temporary event its function is to generate the certain knowledge that such purified states are factual. Its function is to remove doubt. Because mere hearsay or reading or inference just do not compare to direct experience.darvki wrote:That's an intriguing idea. However, it's not completely clear to me what you mean. Perhaps you could elaborate and/or give an example of such a state of mind?
Kind regards
Re: Arupa Jhana
Susima sutta is not about Arupa JhanaAlexei wrote:SN 12.70 - Susima SuttaDazzy wrote:Is there a sutta where the Buddha said that arupa Dhayana are NOT mandatory for Nibbana?
Re: Arupa Jhana
Dazzy wrote:Susima sutta is not about Arupa Jhana
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."
"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form?"
"No, lord."
Re: Arupa Jhana
Thank you for clarifying. Going back to your original post, I wholeheartedly agree.TMingyur wrote:What I mean is the experience of a difference between the ordinary state that is entangled in afflictions and delusions and states not so entangled. Since this in this context necessarily is a temporary event its function is to generate the certain knowledge that such purified states are factual. Its function is to remove doubt. Because mere hearsay or reading or inference just do not compare to direct experience.
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Re: Arupa Jhana
Still -a lot of suttas saying that the four rupa jhana is Right Concentration.
with metta
Matheesha
with metta
Matheesha
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Re: Arupa Jhana
Is this a reaction to my post, or your statement that arupa jhana is unnecessary for nibbana?rowyourboat wrote:Still -a lot of suttas saying that the four rupa jhana is Right Concentration.
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Re: Arupa Jhana
No. Arupa Jhanas are for greater tranquility only. For an average person, easiest and the best method is to reach the 4th Jhana.
There you can see how life works according to the Kamma.
DammaChakku
With Metta
DhammaChakkhu
DhammaChakkhu