Arupa Jhana

Discussion of Samatha bhavana and Jhana bhavana.

Arupa Jhana

Postby Dazzy » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:45 am

Dear Friends,

Is there a sutta where the Buddha said that arupa Dhayana are NOT mandatory for Nibbana?
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:14 am

Try this analysis:
The Jhānas and the Lay Disciple According to the Pāli Suttas
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha267.htm

:anjali:
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby darvki » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:23 am

From the above article:

"The faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are the lowest members of a sevenfold typology of noble persons mentioned in the Nikāyas as an alternative to the more common scheme of "the four pairs of persons," the four path-attainers and the realizers of their respective fruits.[18] The seven fall into three groups. At the apex are the arahants, who are distinguished into two types: (i) "both-ways-liberated" arahants (ubhatobhāgavimutta), who gain release from the taints together with deep experience of the formless attainments; and (ii) "wisdom-liberated" arahants (paññāvimutta), who win release from the taints without such experience of the formless attainments. Next are three types in the intermediate range, from stream-enterers up to those on the path to arahantship. These are: (iii) the body-witness (kāyasakkhī), who has partly eliminated the taints and experiences the formless attainments; (iv) the view-attainer (diṭṭhippatta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on wisdom; and (v) the faith-liberated (saddhāvimutta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on faith. Any disciple at the six intermediate stages -- from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship -- can fall into any of these three categories; the distinctions among them are not determined by degree of progress but by mode of progress, whether through strong concentration, wisdom, or faith. Finally come the two kinds of anusārī (vi-vii), who are on the path to stream-entry."
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby ground » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:24 am

From all that has been discussed and is discussed about jhana's and their necessity for this or that I conclude that the crucial thing is the direct experience of a (temporary) difference. Consequently if there are other means (states of mind) to entail that experience then these may replace jhana completely. This is my conclusion for the time being.


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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby darvki » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:34 am

TMingyur,

That's an intriguing idea. However, it's not completely clear to me what you mean. Perhaps you could elaborate and/or give an example of such a state of mind?
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby Alexei » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:02 am

Dazzy wrote:Is there a sutta where the Buddha said that arupa Dhayana are NOT mandatory for Nibbana?

SN 12.70 - Susima Sutta
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby ground » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:19 am

darvki wrote:That's an intriguing idea. However, it's not completely clear to me what you mean. Perhaps you could elaborate and/or give an example of such a state of mind?


What I mean is the experience of a difference between the ordinary state that is entangled in afflictions and delusions and states not so entangled. Since this in this context necessarily is a temporary event its function is to generate the certain knowledge that such purified states are factual. Its function is to remove doubt. Because mere hearsay or reading or inference just do not compare to direct experience.

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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby Dazzy » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:33 am

Alexei wrote:
Dazzy wrote:Is there a sutta where the Buddha said that arupa Dhayana are NOT mandatory for Nibbana?

SN 12.70 - Susima Sutta


Susima sutta is not about Arupa Jhana
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby Alexei » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:48 am

Dazzy wrote:Susima sutta is not about Arupa Jhana


"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form [the formless jhanas]?"
"No, friend."
"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"
"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, Susima, do you dwell touching with your body the peaceful emancipations, the formless states beyond form?"
"No, lord."
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby darvki » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:29 am

TMingyur wrote:What I mean is the experience of a difference between the ordinary state that is entangled in afflictions and delusions and states not so entangled. Since this in this context necessarily is a temporary event its function is to generate the certain knowledge that such purified states are factual. Its function is to remove doubt. Because mere hearsay or reading or inference just do not compare to direct experience.


Thank you for clarifying. Going back to your original post, I wholeheartedly agree.
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:13 pm

Still -a lot of suttas saying that the four rupa jhana is Right Concentration.


with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Arupa Jhana

Postby darvki » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:03 am

rowyourboat wrote:Still -a lot of suttas saying that the four rupa jhana is Right Concentration.


Is this a reaction to my post, or your statement that arupa jhana is unnecessary for nibbana?
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