Samadhi without sila?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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m0rl0ck
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Samadhi without sila?

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:02 pm

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Cloud
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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby Cloud » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:06 pm

As Jack Kornfield puts it, it's hard to have a good meditation session when you've been out stealing and killing all day.

There is some variance depending on individual minds, but there's a kind of pain that remains with you if you've been doing immoral things, even if you aren't aware of it. This can be detrimental to gaining a clear picture of reality; not saying impossible.

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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby m0rl0ck » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:27 pm

“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:49 pm

Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.

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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby ground » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:31 pm


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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby Emanresu » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:37 pm


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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:51 pm

Hi morlock

This is how sila works in attaining samadhi:

Thus in this way, Ananda, skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, freedom from remorse as their reward. Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward. Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward. Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward. Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward. Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So sila seems necessary to generate the jhana factors.

However, the point you are asking is if a person may be free from remorse without practicing sila. In my opinion, no. Even psychopaths have moral consciousness, although they are not aware of it. I think it stays burried in their minds but it's still there and still blocking jhana factors.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby andre9999 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:09 pm


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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby Individual » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:09 pm

Depends on the understanding of sila.

It is possible to have samadhi without following precepts. But it is not possible to have samadhi without skillful and virtuous actions born of mindfulness.
The best things in life aren't things.


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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby Anicca » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:31 pm


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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby andre9999 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:54 pm


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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby yuttadhammo » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:41 am

Last edited by yuttadhammo on Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:59 am, edited 1 time in total.




Upasampadā: 4 December, 2001

phil
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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby phil » Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:24 am

"When the mind is disturbed it is far from concentration." (MN 19 or 20, I think, but don't count on it, but it is the Buddha's teaching.) In another sutta it is said that guarding the sense doors and sila lead to freedom from remorse, and that is a condition for samadhi. Other people will tell you that (according to Abhidhamma) concentration is a cetasika that accompanies every citta and that right samadhi can occur with any object at any time, but I think that is their very self-generous wishful thinking. Personally, my practice is all about establishing sila, I personally think aspiring for right samadhi without sila is an absurdity, and I say that both from watching the mind, and from the Buddha's teaching, as above.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby yuttadhammo » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:20 am





Upasampadā: 4 December, 2001

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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby rowyourboat » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:44 pm

"Once, Ven. Ananda, Master Gotama was staying near Vesali in the Peaked Roofed Pavilion in the Great Wood. I went to him at the Peaked Roofed Pavilion in the Great Wood, and there he spoke in a variety of ways on mental absorption. Master Gotama was both endowed with mental absorption & made mental absorption his habit. In fact, he praised mental absorption of every sort."

"It wasn't the case, brahman, that the Blessed One praised mental absorption of every sort, nor did he criticize mental absorption of every sort. And what sort of mental absorption did he not praise? There is the case where a certain person dwells with his awareness overcome by sensual passion, seized with sensual passion. He does not discern the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen. Making that sensual passion the focal point, he absorbs himself with it, besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs himself with it.

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by ill will...

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by sloth & drowsiness...

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by restlessness & anxiety...

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by uncertainty, seized with uncertainty. He does not discern the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen. Making that uncertainty the focal point, he absorbs himself with it, besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs himself with it. This is the sort of mental absorption that the Blessed One did not praise.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby Individual » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:56 pm

Thank you, Ven. Yuttadhammo. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


Individual
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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby Individual » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:28 pm

In conventional terms, "right concentration" means samadhi with sila. People should not say, for instance, that concentrating deeply in order to perform immoral acts is the same thing as Buddhist concentration. Angulimala, before he was an Arahant, was an example of wrong samadhi, directed towards killing people rather than helping others attain liberation.

However, in ultimate terms, this no longer applies to the Buddha or the Arahant, because there is concentration but there is no concentrating person upon which wholesome and unwholesome tendencies can sit. In this sense, the Buddha can concentrate to do whatever he wishes; if his concentration were bound to do this or that, to be directed in this or that way, it would not be called unconditioned, it would not be liberation. Instead it would still simply be conditioned action and conditioned rebirth.

Perhaps then one could make the distinction between conventional samadhi and noble or supreme samadhi. In supreme samadhi, sila is irrelevant because there are no actors and no actions, only bodhi. At the same time, with supreme samadhi there is supreme sila; not "attachment to rites and rituals" (like precepts) but skillful and virtuous actions born of mindfulness, which do not require the unnecessary burden of being consciously named. Supreme sila is not spoken, but when it is performed and observed by others, it is extraordinarily beautiful in its resilience. In supreme sila and supreme samadhi, there is no meaningful distinction between the practices of sila and samadhi. In this supreme way, meditation itself is a skillful action (of sitting down or merely impersonal observation while carrying out daily activity) and skillful acts are carried out because of right concentration (the real meditation is when you are engaged in overcoming hindrances which is all the time, not merely when sitting).
The best things in life aren't things.


rowyourboat
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Re: Samadhi without sila?

Postby rowyourboat » Sun Dec 12, 2010 6:31 am

Hi Individual

If you want to write your own 'pali' cannon, be my guest. Some of us actually feel that we do not know everything.

Good luck.


Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha


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