Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:26 am

This thread is for the discussion of the so-called "hard core Dharma" and the claims of attainment. It is several threads on these topics that have been merged.

upekkha
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Daniel M. Ingram - Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:38 pm


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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:42 pm

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby nathan » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:39 pm

Daniel Ingram and now also Kenneth Folk are two people who speak of 'having set down the burden' and along with many other knowledgeable and longstanding practitioners of several buddhist traditions are of the thinking that there is a benefit to a forum for free and open discussion about the path of practice. I think that this is a good thing. It seems that this is not a main focus for Dhamma Wheel so it is good that there is this other forum for such discussions and it is probably most accommodating to all who share this forum to do our best to respect all of Theravada tradition that is in keeping with the Dhamma and Vinaya of the Buddha. Most monastic traditions including most Theravada traditions do not discuss accomplishments and full awakening from the point of view of having accomplished the full awakening with lay followers and I can see the wisdom in this. I do not think that this noble silence means there is any dearth of well accomplished bhikkhus in the Theravada tradition. It is simply another practice, one more thing to let go off, the raft itself.

But many need help finding the raft and with keeping it afloat. Most of the practitioners on the Dhamma Overground forum are not constrained by the rules which are in effect for many ordained bhikkus but still many are very sincere and faithful to their teachings, most are either traditional lay followers or those with a strong secular interest. The aims are specific, well focused and well pursued in this environment which they have developed for that purpose. There is now strong support for a vigorous and energetic practice for those who are keen to make good progress with samatha-vipassana.

If you have questions for these gentlemen I suggest you ask your questions directly. If you are clear and polite in your address I am quite sure that they would be happy to answer any of your questions directly. There is now this forum for discussing practice, primarily vipassana, which serves the purpose of being a place for discussing practices, the experience of practices and accomplishments of practices:


Dhamma Overground
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/

Dharma Overground Homepage
The Dharma Overground is a resource for the support of hardcore meditation practice. It is a place where everything related to the support of practice may flourish, including where to go on retreats, what techniques may lead to what, an in depth look at the maps of possible states and stages, discussions about how to determine what experience was what, and in general anything that has to do with actually practicing rather than what typically occurs in standard meditation circles.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Ben » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:31 pm

With all due respect to Mr Ingram, its not my cup of tea.
I think there is a bit more than dogma behind the embargo of ariyans declaring their attainment. It seems to me, through my own inconsequential experience, but also the experiences of other people who have walked on the path, is that humility seems to be a bi-product of progress.
For those of you who find inspiration in Mr Ingram's words, I wish you every success.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:41 pm

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upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:02 am

hey guys,

I think you are right in the sense that it simply would not be so helpful or even logical in certain ways that such attainments were announced in most householder lineages and even Buddhist sanghas.

Though I find it encouraging that some people are just open about it, It's very good in the sense of being a source of inspiration,

Ben, I was just in London and remembered you recommended "The Quiet Mind" and got a hold of it, I found it quite interesting, specifically the last chapter in which Coleman describes his practice under U Ba Khin,
It was even more interesting because I was browsing through Daniel's book during the same period, and I found that Coleman also describes attaining to a certain stage in the path (that is, having experienced fruition).

Also, when Goenkaji describes later stages of the path, he certainly makes it clear that he is speaking from experience, but when he's asked he prefers to avoid the answer directly.
I understand that it might confuse most people who are at the beginning of the path, but when you see he hints at it directly at certain times it's just obvious..
Same about U Ba Khin.. in the talks I've read he's certainly talking from personal experience..

what do you think?
Last edited by upekkha on Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:19 am


upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:25 am

Hi Dhammanando,

Well, if I ever become an arahant in this lifetime I'll be sure to let you know which descriptions held up :)

I think anyone who has not realized the entire Dhamma for oneself cannot know what is truth and what is false.. specifically in the matter of what is true about being enlightened.
It is my opinion that the suttas can certainly show us the right direction in which to practice and find out.

Ofcourse that being said, we can only speculate. In regards to the quote.. the models of enlightenment, it certainly makes sense to me that an arahant is not limited in action, thought, etc.. ofcourse you would probably not kill people or do immoral things, not because one is simply limited..
It is supposed to be liberation.. these models such as the limited possible action model, or limited possible thought model sound more like bondage to me.

but that's just my opinion, and I certainly cannot tell you from personal experience.. but some people can.. there are quite a few people who have reached the goal in our day and age,
obviously most won't say it outloud, mostly from practical reasons i believe, they are all over the spiritual map, different traditions etc..
If one is lucky enough to meet such people then you can ask.. or just once when one will become liberated, or enlightened, to some degree or to arahathood, however we call it, those questions will answer themselves :)

TheDhamma,
I think you are right about the Buddha, and also I think the same might apply today because many people believe enlightenment is impossible, or close to impossible, surely not in this lifetime, even many of those who practice.

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby nathan » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:42 am

Last edited by nathan on Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:55 am

Hi Upekkha

Its been a few years since I read the Quiet Mind and shortly afterwards it went to a friend's home and never returned.
My memory, which isn't infallible, of the book is that I recollect that Coleman describes a meditative experience but i didn't get the impression that he attained or inferred some attainment or the other. My impression was that he gave a very eloquent explanation of the meditative experience.

As for Goenkaji, I remember him replying to one questioner who asked whether he was enlightened with 'no'. When further questioned as to what stage he had reached he suggested his interlocutor to concentrate on getting established in the Dhamma so that he could enjoy the taste of nibbana for himself. I am convinced that Sayagi U Ba Khin and Goenkaji teach from a depth of experience that is far beyond my own experience, but I don't think its particularly useful to either speculate about a teacher's attainment or make it known as it is a distraction from the main game, that is, one's own practice.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:00 am


nathan
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby nathan » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:05 am

Last edited by nathan on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:05 am

Last edited by upekkha on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:12 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:14 am


upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:17 am

Last edited by upekkha on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:19 am

Last edited by upekkha on Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:24 am

From memory the Burmese law was meant to discourage charlatains who would develop a following and harvest their wealth. I came across it in an article written by an elderly monk in the 'Light of the Buddha' a publication that was started in 1955 to commemorate the beginning of the second sasana and the coming together of the sixth Buddhist council in Burma. If you go to http://www.pariyatti.org and go to their treasures page, you should be able to download the entire series of Light of the Buddha and the Light of the Dhamma periodicals. They're well worth it.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

nathan
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:11 am

Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby nathan » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:29 am

But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}


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