Hi Goofaholix,
I guess I'm just stressing the ease in which a mindfulness method could fall into the trap that Bikkhu Bodhi mentions above. Following the vipassana nana system is the only assurance that it is leading us to transcend samsara, rather than deeper into it.
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Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
With Metta
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
So we are back where we started, where can I find the explanation of the vipassana nana system so that I can check whether SUT teaching complies?rowyourboat wrote:I guess I'm just stressing the ease in which a mindfulness method could fall into the trap that Bikkhu Bodhi mentions above. Following the vipassana nana system is the only assurance that it is leading us to transcend samsara, rather than deeper into it.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
How do you know that?rowyourboat wrote: I guess I'm just stressing the ease in which a mindfulness method could fall into the trap that Bikkhu Bodhi mentions above. Following the vipassana nana system is the only assurance that it is leading us to transcend samsara, rather than deeper into it.
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
Guess.Kenshou wrote:How do you know that?rowyourboat wrote: I guess I'm just stressing the ease in which a mindfulness method could fall into the trap that Bikkhu Bodhi mentions above. Following the vipassana nana system is the only assurance that it is leading us to transcend samsara, rather than deeper into it.
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
If that was true, I would think the Buddha would have taught the vipassana nana system to everyone he came across. I don't see any evidence for that.rowyourboat wrote:Following the vipassana nana system is the only assurance that it is leading us to transcend samsara, rather than deeper into it.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
My guess is that you're just being over-enthusiastic. Or alternatively, you think you've become a sotapanna through that practice and so now have license to poo-poo other methods. But you haven't claimed that so I won't load that accusation onto you willy-nilly, merely a guess. I'm not saying anything against the Mahasi system here, mind you, but I feel more or less the same as kirk5a above.rowyourboat wrote:Guess.
Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
I'm guessing you think highly of yourself, and so think highly of mahasi by extension. From there it is only a short jump to this partisan parry-and-thust between yourself and every non-mahasi practitioner on the forum.rowyourboat wrote:Guess.Kenshou wrote:How do you know that?
If you were what you seem to consider yourself to be, I don't think you'd be so quick to narrow the dhamma down to this single mahasi method.
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
Hi All,
I think what matters here is that it is not possible for someone who isn't a stream entrant to know whether another person is one or not. So any discussion on the matter- including calling me overenthusiastic -is pure speculation! (as in - you cant know whether I am overenthusiastic or deluded or enlightened...).
So it is best to focus on the subject matter at hand..
The vipassana nana falls into the framework of the visuddhi ('purifications') which is taught by the Buddha in the suttas. Specific nana like sanakharaupekka nana is mentioned directly in the suttas (rare). Udayabaya nana is commonly mentioned in the suttas. The content of the other nanas are mentioned descriptively, in the progressive format the nanas are laid out in, in the suttas. Because of this I am confident that the nanas are a true reflection of the progress of vipassana. This has been borne out in my practice and also of those whom I guide (ie- it happens to them, in that order, regardless of whether they know it or not). So in my opinion (while they need not be known or memorized for practice) they do serve as important guide to the gradations of practice in vipassana, without which most vipassana teachers would be lost. So while I agree that it is not for every practitioner to know these things, it is essential (IMO) for a dhamma teacher to be very fluent in it- to successfully guide a meditator without them going off track by practicing a type of mindfulness which is not conducive to their arising. In any case, it is upto each of us to decide whether we want to make best use of ancient wisdom or not.
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Matheesha
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
One should, then, be careful about things one says about oneself, which can easily lead to "speculation.".rowyourboat wrote:I think what matters here is that it is not possible for someone who isn't a stream entrant to know whether another person is one or not. So any discussion on the matter- including calling me overenthusiastic -is pure speculation! (as in - you cant know whether I am overenthusiastic or deluded or enlightened...).
Probably so, and without suggesting what happens next.So while I agree that it is not for every practitioner to know these things, it is essential (IMO) for a dhamma teacher to be very fluent in it- to successfully guide a meditator without them going off track by practicing a type of mindfulness which is not conducive to their arising. In any case, it is upto each of us to decide whether we want to make best use of ancient wisdom or not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
You were really, really begging the question. You -asked- for speculation! But, okay.I think what matters here is that it is not possible for someone who isn't a stream entrant to know whether another person is one or not. So any discussion on the matter- including calling me overenthusiastic -is pure speculation! (as in - you cant know whether I am overenthusiastic or deluded or enlightened...).
Roughly, sure. I believe it would be an exaggeration to say that all the trimmings and implications of Mahasi's progress of insight or Burmese vipassana in general are contained in the suttas, though. I do not really have any big problem with those systems however and I wouldn't be so nosy as to tell people that they shouldn't use that knowledge if they want, do what works for you I say. It is simply the word "only", in that strict sense, that I take issue with, for that first reason.The vipassana nana falls into the framework of the visuddhi ('purifications') which is taught by the Buddha in the suttas.
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
Hi Kenshou,
Agreed. I hope you will give me the right to say what I feel: that any teacher who cannot-does not-would not- use the vipassana nana in explaining the progress of insight is quite possibly teaching samatha in the guise of vipassana!
with metta
Matheesha
Agreed. I hope you will give me the right to say what I feel: that any teacher who cannot-does not-would not- use the vipassana nana in explaining the progress of insight is quite possibly teaching samatha in the guise of vipassana!
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Matheesha
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
Well you have that right by default, of course.
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Re: Where practicing Vipassaná in Burma?
Vipassana can be identified if the method gives rise to vipassana nana (insight knowledges) and not otherwise. Since there is no mention or even a hint of vipassana nana in Sayadaw U Tejaniya's teachings it leads me to the conclusion that he is teaching samatha/cittanupassana as you say (and his descriptions of the fruits of the practice fall squarely in the samatha camp).
Hi Matheesha,rowyourboat wrote:
He talks of curiosity- of mind states- but that is pretty mundane. There is no talk of vipassana nana.
I might be mistaken but I would be interested in seeing anything he has said/written about vipasana nana.
with metta
Matheesha
To add another off topic post..., I think it's not easy to make assessment of a teacher merely through bits of informations about him. As I've practiced directly under U Tejaniya, I can say that your understanding of his teaching is quite far from what he actually teaches (supposing that mine is closer to it as yours, though for sure it's also filtered through my own, biased understanding).
First, SUT didn't develop his teaching from the western point of view. His teacher was Shwee OO Min, one of the two biggest disciples of Mahasi Sayadaw, the other one being Sayadaw U Pandita. However, SOM was more inclined to give emphasis on the mind, instead of the body. That's why he left Mahasi Yangoon center and founded his own meditation center. U Tejaniya was the one, among his disciples, to be designated as his successor and was even allowed to teach when SOM was still alive.
It's not something that can be straightforwardly done to describe SUT's method, as it has evolved over the years and will certainly still change again, as life it self.
Currently, his method can be summarized as follow (as far as I can understand and describe):
- Natural awareness of any object that arises at the six sense door. Not purposedly focusing in any object in particular
- Maintaining the awareness continuously as much as one can by constantly checking whether one is aware.
- More attention on the mind that is aware versus the object of that awareness. When we pay attention tho the awareness, the object is naturally known also.
-Constantly checking the attitude of the mind. The purpose is to establish right view (everything is dhamma),and to prevent lobha and dosa from invading the mind that meditates
- Keep the mind interested (investigative mind- or dhamma vicaya) - this is to give the mind a direction to go: toward understanding, panna.
It's true SUT doesn't talk about vipassana nana, but it's because he considers it to be not a trivial matter. Mostly people think they get the nana but they actually don't. He only tries to make people understand how to cultivate the right causes. When the right causes are sufficient, the right effects- wisdom will arise.
It's misleading when you only read his books. He actually teaches differently according to the yogis' level of understanding. For most yogis, he keeps bringing them back again to the basic practice, for those who have gone a little bit further - because they have understood the basic practice, he also brings them back to the basic practice to understand it even more and actually does explain more about the nature of wisdom. However, again, he never make yogis satisfy with what they have understood. He always says, understanding is not yet complete, keep going....
Many experienced yogis and even meditation teachers come to him because of his thorough understanding of the mind and of the Path.
When his method is practiced correctly, it can lead to vipassana samadhi, which is built up from understanding, and becomes the ground for wisdom to unfold up to the highest level.
Well, that's more or less a better presentation of his teaching. It's one of the most vipassana flavour kind of teachings that I've known.... All misinterpretations will be mine...
And nothing can be compared to being under his direct guidance.
D.F
So this is one of the most "vipassana" way of practice that I know