Moderator: Mahavihara moderator
2. The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step — without further explanation — refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." If the Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath in such close proximity, he would have been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does below, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of reference). The step of breathing in and out sensitive to the entire body relates to the many similes in the suttas depicting jhana as a state of whole-body awareness (see MN 119).
starter wrote:I feel both piti and sukha seem to be more bodily feelings instead of mental qualities. "piti" seems to be a strong feeling of energy "showers" in the body, while sukha (轻安？）seems to be an extraordinarily pleasant bodily feeling associated with very tranquil mental feeling which can last hours or days following strong piti. But I'm not sure about them.
I'm interested in figuring out the meanings of piti and sukha because Ven. Thanissaro interpreted "piti" as a sense of refreshment (bodily feeling) and "sukha" as a sense of pleasure/ease (a mental feeling) for steps 5 & 6 of anapanasati in Meditation4. This way of contemplating steps 5 & 6 seem to be better than the method I've been using (breathe in/out experiencing bodily feeling and mental feeling). But even the sense of refreshment and pleasure might not occur so easily during the contemplation.
starter wrote:Hi friend,
I'm studying Anapanasati sutta, and would like to know if "sabbakayam patisamveti" mean "Experiencing the entire body" or "Experiencing all bodies"? Ven. Thanissaro translated it as "sensitive to the entire body", but Ven. Buddhadasa referred it as "Experiencing all bodies" (both breath and flesh body). The early Chinese version had "experience all breaths". I wonder if "kayam" is singular or plural?
I found the following definition for "piti" and "sukha" in "A Glossary of Pali and Buddhist Terms":
starter wrote:I'm studying Anapanasati sutta, and would like to know if "sabbakayam patisamveti" mean "Experiencing the entire body" or "Experiencing all bodies"? Ven. Thanissaro translated it as "sensitive to the entire body", but Ven. Buddhadasa referred it as "Experiencing all bodies" (both breath and flesh body). The early Chinese version had "experience all breaths". I wonder if "kayam" is singular or plural?
How is it that (5) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the whole body;' (6) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with the whole body'?
[Analysis of the object]
Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body.
What is the mental body?
Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, and mentality are the mental body, and also what are called mind fabrications: these are the mental body.
What is the material body?
The four great elements and the forms derived from clinging to the four great elements, the in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness], and also what are called body fabrications: this is the material body.
How is he acquainted with these bodies? When he understands unification of mind and non-distraction through long in-breaths, his mindfulness is founded. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies. When he understands unification of mind and non-distraction through long outbreaths ... through short in-breaths ... through short out-breaths, his mindfulness is founded. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies.
When he adverts [to the three trainings of higher virtue (adhisila), higher mind (adhicitta), and higher discernment (adhipanna)], he is acquainted with those bodies. When he knows, he is acquainted with those bodies. When he sees ... reviews, steadies his mind ... resolves with faith ... exerts effort ... establishes mindfulness ... concentrates mind ... When he understands with understanding ... When he directly knows what is to be directly known ... When he fully understands what is to be fully understood ... When he abandons what is to be abandoned ... When he develops what is to be developed ... When he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with those bodies. That is how those bodies are experienced.
(3) "'Experiencing the whole body, I breathe in,' thus he trains himself:" In two ways he knows the whole body, through non-confusion and through the object. Q. What is the knowledge of the whole body through non-confusion? A. A yogin practises mindfulness of respiration and develops concentration through contact accompanied by joy and bliss. Owing to the experiencing of contact accompanied by joy and bliss the whole body becomes non-confused. Q. What is the knowledge of the whole body through the object? A. The incoming breath and the outgoing breath comprise the bodily factors dwelling in one sphere. The object of respiration and the mind and the mental properties are called "body." These bodily factors are called "body." Thus should the whole body be known.
Sabbakayapatisamvedi Assasissami... passasissamiti sikkhati... = "Experiencing the whole body I shall breathe in... breathe out, thinking thus, he trains himself." He trains himself with the following idea: I shall breathe in making known, making clear, to myself the beginning, middle, and end of the whole body of breathings in; I shall breathe out making known, making clear, to myself the beginning, middle and end of the whole body of breathings out. And he breathes in and breathes out with consciousness associated with knowledge making known, making clear, to himself the breaths."
"To one bhikkhu, indeed, in the tenuous diffused body of in- breathing or body of out-breathing only the beginning becomes clear; not the middle or the end. He is able to lay hold of only the beginning. In the middle and at the end he is troubled. To another the middle becomes clear and not the beginning or the end. To a third only the end becomes clear; the beginning and the middle do not become clear and he is able only to lay hold of the breath at the end. He is troubled at the beginning and at the middle. To a fourth even all the three stages become clear and he is able to lay hold of all; he is troubled nowhere. For pointing out that this subject of meditation should be developed after the manner of the fourth one, the Master said: Experiencing... He trains himself."
"Since in the earlier way of the practice of this meditation there was nothing else to be done but just breathing in and breathing out, it is said: He thinking, I breathe in... understands... and since thereafter there should be endeavor for bringing about knowledge and so forth, it is said, Experiencing the whole body I shall breathe in."
At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.
Yasmiṃ, mahānāma, samaye ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati, nevassa tasmiṃ samaye rāgapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na dosapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na mohapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti; ujugatamevassa tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti tathāgataṃ ārabbha. Ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. Ayaṃ vuccati, mahānāma, ariyasāvako visamagatāya pajāya samappatto viharati, sabyāpajjāya pajāya abyāpajjo viharati, dhammasotasamāpanno buddhānussatiṃ bhāveti.
Dmytro wrote:However later sources, Visuddhimagga and Atthakatha, interpret this as only the "breath body":
sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī ti sabbassa kāyassa paṭi paṭi paccekaṃ sammadeva vedanasīlo jānanasīlo, tassa vā paṭi paṭi sammadeva vedo etassa atthi, taṃ vā paṭi paṭi sammadeva vedamānoti attho. tattha tattha sabbaggahaṇena assāsādikāyassa anavasesapariyādāne siddhepi anekakalāpasamudāyabhāvato tassa sabbesampi bhāgānaṃ saṃvedanadassanatthaṃ paṭisaddaggahaṇaṃ. tattha sakkaccakārībhāvadassanatthaṃ saṃsaddaggahaṇanti imamatthaṃ dassento "sakalassā" tiādimāha. tattha yathā samānepi assāsapassāsesu yogino paṭipattividhāne paccekaṃ sakkaccaṃyeva paṭipajjitabbanti dassetuṃ visuṃ desanā katā, evaṃ tamevatthaṃ dīpetuṃ satipi atthassa samānatāya "sakalassā"tiādinā padadvayassa visuṃ visuṃ atthavaṇṇanā katāti veditabbaṃ.
thereductor wrote:So what I'm usually left with is akin to what Buddhadasa seems to refer to above. Take note that I've not read his works, so I'm going by what you quote. But at step 3 and 4 my perceptions of the body become more pronounced; I begin to experience the breath movement of the body, the sense of those body parts that are not moving, and the experience of the body's posture and size.
starter wrote:Very good point. I agree that we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, without trying to separate them into individual parts while practicing anapanasati. Metta,
starter wrote:I agree that we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, without trying to separate them into individual parts while practicing anapanasati. Metta,
starter wrote:Hi Geoff,
Thanks for the very helpful links. For steps 5 & 6 of anapanasati, I think I'd better just contemplate on "experiencing bodily pleasure I breathe in ..." and "experiencing mental pleasure I breathe in ..." instead of trying to figure out the exact nature of piti and sukha.
"I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself [not the flesh body or mental body]."*
Although we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, the sentence "experiencing the whole body I breathe in/out" in the sutta itself seems to mean following the entire breath (a very good way to concentrate the mind), instead of pervading the breath sensation to the whole (flesh) body which doesn't seem to be remaining "focused on the body (breath) in & itself".
Except that the Satipatthana Sutta goes on to explain "body" fairly unambiguously in terms of the physical body. I won't quote it, because it's long, but it's right after the portion on breathing. Which relates back to another thing, that this first quote* from MN 118 is from 1 of 4 parts showing how the tetrads of anapanasati relate to the 4 satipatthana. I believe that since the 1st satipatthana appears to be referring to the usual physical body, it can be inferred that the 1st tetrad of anapanasati also deals with the physical body, otherwise they really wouldn't be compared in that way.It seems to me that “Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance" in MN 10 also refers to the in-&-out breath as far as Mindfulness of breathing is done.
Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 5 guests