Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
BlackBird
Posts: 2069
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:07 pm

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by BlackBird »

alan wrote:Nothing I've read in the Suttas says anything about Boddisattvas.
It's remarkably absent. Which would lead one who gives the suttas precedence to the conclusion that the Buddha would have us take the path to Arahantship. Guess it depends on who you take as your teacher. Many people enjoy the Buddha's wisdom and delight in practicing meditation, but otherwise do not surrender to the idea that the Buddha is the incomparable teacher of man kind and therefore they do not defer to him, but refer, especially when it comes to mental pleasure seeking. Unfortunately (as happens to some), once Buddhism is relegated to a scholarly pursuit of knowledge then it is no longer regarded as an urgent medicine for a pressing issue.
"There is the case where a monk, as day departs and night returns, reflects: 'Many are the [possible] causes of my death. A snake might bite me, a scorpion might sting me, a centipede might bite me. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me. Stumbling, I might fall; my food, digested, might trouble me; my bile might be provoked, my phlegm... piercing wind forces [in the body] might be provoked. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me.' Then the monk should investigate: 'Are there any evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by me that would be an obstruction for me were I to die in the night?' If, on reflecting, he realizes that there are evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die in the night, then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. But if, on reflecting, he realizes that there are no evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die in the night, then for that very reason he should dwell in joy & rapture, training himself day & night in skillful qualities.
- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#turban1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Nyana »

BlackBird wrote:
alan wrote:Nothing I've read in the Suttas says anything about Boddisattvas.
It's remarkably absent.
Are you suggesting that prior to his awakening the Buddha wasn't a bodhisattva and the suttas where he refers to himself prior to his awakening as a bodhisattva are fictions?
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Sanghamitta »

The Suttas talk about the Bodhisattva ...singular. The Buddha to be. In our age that was Gautama Siddhartha. All other Bodhisattvas are literary devices and/or left overs from the Vedanta. Which were smuggled back into Buddhism via the Mahayana. Do you really not know Nana that this is the mainstream Theravada view ? Or do you just like playing Maras Advocate ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Nyana »

Sanghamitta wrote:All other Bodhisattvas are literary devices and/or left overs from the Vedanta. Which were smuggled back into Buddhism via the Mahayana.
The Metteyya stuff was "smuggled back into Buddhism via the Mahayana"?
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Sanghamitta »

In every age there is one Buddha per world system. Shakyamuni is the Buddha for this age. Metteya for the next age/world system.

Avalokiteshvara , Tara, Manjushri et al are borrowings from the Vedanta incorporated into the mahayana by a regrettable lapse into the pre Buddhist cosmology of the Indian Subcontinent. Gilding the lily.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Nyana »

Sanghamitta wrote:Avalokiteshvara , Tara, Manjushri et al are borrowings from the Vedanta incorporated into the mahayana by a regrettable lapse into the pre Buddhist cosmology of the Indian Subcontinent.
So are you now suggesting that the meditative practice of the recollection of devas is a "regrettable lapse into the pre Buddhist cosmology of the Indian Subcontinent"?
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Sanghamitta »

It depends what you mean by meditative practices. If you mean reflecting the nature of Devas as described in the Canon...then no.
If you mean practices that start by initiation by a Guru figure into visualisation with concomitant "mantras" which somehow connect between the "Kayas".... in order to realise the essential emptiness of phenomena...then absolutely that is contamination from the Vedanta.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Hanzze »

Dear Friends,

there are no scared texts or any special hidden. Those ancient suttas cared by the Theravada are just empty. Empty of sectarian, empty of schools, empty of any "I" or "ours".
It is just as Buddha explained in the sutta of Alagaddupama Sutta (allready posted) It is a very important sutta to keep the original teaching alive as it should be. And also dear gavesako has already posted, that what should not be ignored.
It is very important to discover the ancient way of the 9th and 10th century, because they will provide a possible way for many layman today. "Original Theravada" is a way of ordination and keeping precepts very strict and not easy to make archive in this days.
There is no Mara outside of us. Aversion and adherence are the qualities of Mara.

Please let the dhamma empty, other wise it will be eaten by Mara. No need to combat. Please

_/\_
with loving kindness and joy
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Sanghamitta »

Hanzze I am a practitioner of Theravada Buddhism. Do not dismiss me or the Tradition that I am part of.
You are posting on a Theravadin Forum in subforum called Theravada for the Moden World.
in order to say that the Theravada does not exist
Apart from anything else its downright crassly offensive.
Last edited by Sanghamitta on Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:41 pm

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

Touchy, touchy.

I wonder if the Blessed One himself was this touchy.

:jumping:

:rofl:

:yingyang: :yingyang: :yingyang:
Last edited by Karma Dondrup Tashi on Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Sanghamitta »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Touchy, touchy.

I wonder if the Blessed One himself was this touchy.

:jumping:

:rofl:

:yingyang: :yingyang: :yingyang:
No probably not touchy. I am not the Blessed One
I also think that he might have a few pithy words to anyone who told him that his teaching was identical to the Brahmins or fireworshipers and that he was being exclusivist and all he needed to do was chill out and realise that it was all the same really.. It isnt.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by m0rl0ck »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Touchy, touchy.

I wonder if the Blessed One himself was this touchy.

:jumping:

:rofl:

:yingyang: :yingyang: :yingyang:
Yeah its the followers that screw it up. I bet if you put shakya buddha, huang po, ajahn chah and the dalai lama in the same room they would get along famously and have much in common. Its only the followers who have to latch on to sectarian identity as some sort of badge of superiority. I bet that sort of view plays hell with your practice.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Hanzze »

"Worthless man, from whom have you understood that Dhamma taught by me in such a way? Worthless man, haven't I in many ways described obstructive acts? And when indulged in they are genuine obstructions. I have said that sensual pleasures are of little satisfaction, much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a chain of bones: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a lump of flesh... a grass torch... a pit of glowing embers... a dream... borrowed goods... the fruits of a tree... a butcher's ax and chopping block... swords and spears... a snake's head: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. But you, worthless man, through your own wrong grasp [of the Dhamma], have both misrepresented us as well as injuring yourself and accumulating much demerit for yourself, for that will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."[2]
Alagaddupama Sutta
Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Sanghamitta »

I am not harmed Hannzze I am seriously offended by your words. Dont tell me not be offended. that would be even more offensive.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Post Reply