Bodhisattva Path: Historical Aspects In Theravāda

[Ñāṇa]

Avalokiteshvara , Tara, Manjushri et al are borrowings from the Vedanta incorporated into the mahayana by a regrettable lapse into the pre Buddhist cosmology of the Indian Subcontinent.

So are you now suggesting that the meditative practice of the recollection of devas is a "regrettable lapse into the pre Buddhist cosmology of the Indian Subcontinent"?

[Sanghamitta]

It depends what you mean by meditative practices. If you mean reflecting the nature of Devas as described in the Canon...then no.
If you mean practices that start by initiation by a Guru figure into visualisation with concomitant "mantras" which somehow connect between the "Kayas".... in order to realise the essential emptiness of phenomena...then absolutely that is contamination from the Vedanta.

[Hanzze]

Dear Friends,

there are no scared texts or any special hidden. Those ancient suttas cared by the Theravada are just empty. Empty of sectarian, empty of schools, empty of any "I" or "ours".
It is just as Buddha explained in the sutta of Alagaddupama Sutta (allready posted) It is a very important sutta to keep the original teaching alive as it should be. And also dear gavesako has already posted, that what should not be ignored.
It is very important to discover the ancient way of the 9th and 10th century, because they will provide a possible way for many layman today. "Original Theravada" is a way of ordination and keeping precepts very strict and not easy to make archive in this days.
There is no Mara outside of us. Aversion and adherence are the qualities of Mara.

Please let the dhamma empty, other wise it will be eaten by Mara. No need to combat. Please

_/\_
with loving kindness and joy

[Sanghamitta]

Hanzze I am a practitioner of Theravada Buddhism. Do not dismiss me or the Tradition that I am part of.
You are posting on a Theravadin Forum in subforum called Theravada for the Moden World.
in order to say that the Theravada does not exist
Apart from anything else its downright crassly offensive.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Touchy, touchy.

I wonder if the Blessed One himself was this touchy.

[Sanghamitta]

Touchy, touchy.

I wonder if the Blessed One himself was this touchy.

No probably not touchy. I am not the Blessed One
I also think that he might have a few pithy words to anyone who told him that his teaching was identical to the Brahmins or fireworshipers and that he was being exclusivist and all he needed to do was chill out and realise that it was all the same really.. It isnt.

[m0rl0ck]

Touchy, touchy.

I wonder if the Blessed One himself was this touchy.

Yeah its the followers that screw it up. I bet if you put shakya buddha, huang po, ajahn chah and the dalai lama in the same room they would get along famously and have much in common. Its only the followers who have to latch on to sectarian identity as some sort of badge of superiority. I bet that sort of view plays hell with your practice.

[Hanzze]

"Worthless man, from whom have you understood that Dhamma taught by me in such a way? Worthless man, haven't I in many ways described obstructive acts? And when indulged in they are genuine obstructions. I have said that sensual pleasures are of little satisfaction, much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a chain of bones: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. I have compared sensual pleasures to a lump of flesh... a grass torch... a pit of glowing embers... a dream... borrowed goods... the fruits of a tree... a butcher's ax and chopping block... swords and spears... a snake's head: of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks. But you, worthless man, through your own wrong grasp [of the Dhamma], have both misrepresented us as well as injuring yourself and accumulating much demerit for yourself, for that will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."[2]

Alagaddupama Sutta

[Sanghamitta]

I am not harmed Hannzze I am seriously offended by your words. Dont tell me not be offended. that would be even more offensive.

[Hanzze]

_/\_

[bodom]

Touchy, touchy.

I wonder if the Blessed One himself was this touchy.

There are some people who tenaciously cling to this label and concept "Theravada" as some sort of ultimate truth. They are no better than Christian fundamentalists who believe there way is the one and only and everyone else is going to burn for eternity.

I would like a source from the canon where the Buddha explicitly states we should cling to this label and concept "Theravada"?

Where in the Four Nobel Truths, Dependent Origination, or any other teaching found in the canon for that matter, does the Buddha praise this sort of clinging to concepts?

"If you are a bodhisattva, you will suffer, if you are an arahant, you will suffer..if you are anything at all, you will suffer." - Ajahn Chah

[Sanghamitta]

By "some people " you mean me Bodom... Its Ok I am a big girl I can take it...And I am glad to know where I stand in your eyes.

[Sanghamitta]

By "some people " you mean me Bodom... Its Ok I am a big girl I can take it...And I am glad to know where I stand in your eyes.

Its preferable to the kind of passive aggression being spread around liberally.

[tiltbillings]

What a pain in the ass.

The problem is not the Theravada, but it is the Mahayana and the assumption it has built into its very structure of holding itself as being superior and as being the arbiter of all things Buddhists. It has constructed the towering edifice of the bodhisattva path, an impossibly complex path, claiming of itself the greatest nobility and anything else is, compared to that, of a considerably lesser standing (to understate it). Whatever insights that various Mahayanists have brought forth over the ages, as they have confronted the human condition in terms of anicca, dukkha, anatta and paticcasamuppada, those insight get all too easily lost in the dualistic bodhisattva construct that really runs counter to the better impulses of the Buddha's teachings.

The Theravada does not need the Mahayana, but if one is so inclined there is no reason not to study whatever aspect of the Mahayana that might grab one's fancy. There are things to be found that really are quite interesting and useful, but I strongly reject any implication - directly or indirectly - that the Theravada must measure itself in Mahayana terms or against the Mahayana. And that is the problem with the Mahayana structure, it tends force that sort of comparison by its self proclaimed superiority.

[tiltbillings]

Moderator note: Play nice. No need for personal comments, direct or indirect.

[rowyourboat]

Indeed -thank you Tilt,

Now -can we be good dhamma practitioners (Theravadins and Mahayanists that is..) and learn to live to gether without attacking each other? Is it too much to ask? Can we actually be civil to each other and respect (if not tolerate) each others take on the world? I rather prefer clear mahayana - theravada classification rather than elements within each pretending to be something they are not (like 'vipassana' teachers for example).

with metta

[Hanzze]

"Wrong practice of the Buddha Dhamma.":



_/\_
with loving kindness

[Sanghamitta]

What a pain in the ass.

The problem is not the Theravada, but it is the Mahayana and the assumption it has built into its very structure of holding itself as being superior and as being the arbiter of all things Buddhists. It has constructed the towering edifice of the bodhisattva path, an impossibly complex path, claiming of itself the greatest nobility and anything else is, compared to that, of a considerably lesser standing (to understand it). Whatever insights that various Mahayanists have brought forth over the ages, as they have confronted the human condition in terms of anicca, dukkha, anatta and paticcasamuppada, those insight get all too easily lost in the dualistic bodhisattva construct that really runs counter to the better impulses of the Buddha's teachings.

The Theravada does not need the Mahayana, but if one is so inclined there is no reason not to study whatever aspect of the Mahayana that might grab one's fancy. There are things to be found that really are quite interesting and useful, but I strongly reject any implication - directly or indirectly - that the Theravada must measure itself in Mahayana terms or against the Mahayana. And that is the problem with the Mahayana structure, it tends force that sort of comparison by its self proclaimed superiority.

I concur ...of course. I find it extraordinary that i should need to defend the Theravada position on a Theravada website. I think the ingrained nature of the mahayana is such that they actually do not realise when they set themselves up as the acme by which other schools are judges. It is so second nature to them that they do not realise consciously that they are doing it. So follows a series of questions which when answered honestly according to the lights of mainstream Theravada teachings..leave one open to accusations of sectarianism ! But NO well known or not well known Theravadin teacher would support the idea of chanting mantras to uncanonical " Bodhisattva's". And no amount of being emollient or quietly ignoring that inconvenient truth alters the facts of the matter.
I will make every effort to stay within the guidelines of the forum .But it remains a fact that the forum is subject to pressure to become more like the Mahayana by those who possibly do not know that they are doing it. We have even been told today that the Theravada does not exist...which is conflating the fact that the Theravada may have only a provisional existance, but that provisional existance is real and serves a purpose for those who can use it. It is not to be dismissed by those who have other apparent needs.
I find it baffling...I cannot imagine frequenting a mahayana website in order to convert them to my view. It must be exhausting.

[tiltbillings]

Dear tiltbillings,

it is nothing about Mahayana or Theravada, and there is no offense from any Mahayana. It is just to remember to make nothing our own. From any side.
Please remember the "Wrong practice of the Buddha Dhamma.":


_/\_
with loving kindness

This is not really helpful at all, though well meaning, I am sure.

[Hanzze]

_/\_