Kathavatthu

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
User avatar
Wizard in the Forest
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:16 am
Location: House in Forest of Illusions

Kathavatthu

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

What were some important points that were refuted (out of the 252 points of contention) in the Kathavatthu?

I don't see many places where I can get a translation of the Kathavatthu and the only one I found online was in Pali, and I'm not good enough with the language to feel confident to read it all. What were some points brought up?
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
User avatar
Annapurna
Posts: 2639
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:04 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Annapurna »

Here is the Kathavatthu suttha:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I don't understand why you want to refute points in that suttha? Don't you agree with it?

A
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran »

Hello Annapurna,

This topic is in the Abhidhamma sub-forum. :smile:

Kathāvatthu (Pāli) (abbrev. Kv, Kvu), translated as "Points of Controversy", is a Buddhist scripture, one of the seven books in the Theravada Abhidhamma Pitaka. The text contrasts the orthodox Theravada position on a range of issues to the heterodox views of various interlocutors; the latter are not identified in the primary source text, but were speculatively identified with specific schools of thought in the (historically subsequent) commentaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathavatthu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Wizard in the Forest
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:16 am
Location: House in Forest of Illusions

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

There's no illustration of the points in the wiki. That's why I asked about it.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran »

Hello Wizard,

There isn’t much translated and online. Pariyatti (if in North America) or the Pali Text Society Websites may be helpful – but possibly expensive unless vitally interested.

Your best bet is to join Dhammastudygroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if you aren’t already a member, and go to their Files section. Click on ‘’ Useful_Posts_2010-12.htm - Useful posts (with links) updated December 2010’’ and read any threads listed under ''K'' on Katavatthu.
Many members of Dhammastudygroup are well-versed in the intricacies of the the Abhidhamma and commentaries, and I find them a very valuable resource.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Kare »

The best and most detailed information about Kathavatthu is probably found in Nyanatiloka: "Guide to the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=2539" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mettāya,
Kåre
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran »

Hello Kare,

Thanks for your recommendation. I've ordered it as a Christmas Present for myself. :smile:

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Kare »

cooran wrote:Hello Kare,

Thanks for your recommendation. I've ordered it as a Christmas Present for myself. :smile:

with metta
Chris
You deserve it - not at least for all those jokes that have kept me chuckling ... :rofl:

Merry Christmas - or in Norwegian: God Jul! ("Good Yule")
Mettāya,
Kåre
User avatar
Wizard in the Forest
Posts: 699
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:16 am
Location: House in Forest of Illusions

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Wizard in the Forest »

Those jokes are adorable by the way. I'm not good at jokes, which is why I posted the link for nerd jokes
:rofl:

But I will take a look at this commentary on the Abhidhamma.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by pt1 »

Hi, kathavatthu and its commentary were translated and published by PTS as "Points of controversy" and "The debates commentary" :
http://www.palitext.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From their Translations page:
http://www.palitext.com/palitext/tran.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Points of Controversy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1915, 1993 ISBN 002 9 £23.65
...
The Debates Commentary, tr. B.C. Law, 1940, 1989 ISBN 019 3 £20.60
Not sure if this is pricey, but once you buy their books, you generally end up using them for decades. And they are always a great gift/donation. Also, if you become a member of PTS, I think you get from them a free book of your choosing once a year.

Also, if you have a big library close by (and in particular a university library with a department for Asian studies or something like that) they might have a lot of PTS books that you can borrow. Mine for example has pretty much the entire canon and many of the commentary translations by PTS.

NOt sure if there's another English translations of kathavatthu, though I think Ven.Pannasikhara mentioned that there's a working translation by Conze, which is easier to follow than the PTS translation (which can be difficult since it's about a hundred years old).

Regarding dsg, this is the direct link to the current Useful posts file:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... _Posts.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As Chris mentioned, you'd need to become a member of the group to access it.

Best wishes
Last edited by pt1 on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran »

Kare wrote:The best and most detailed information about Kathavatthu is probably found in Nyanatiloka: "Guide to the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=2539" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Great good luck!! I ordered the Guide to the Abhidhamma Pitaka over the Net on the 15th December (Oz time). It was coming from Ilford in Essex, U.K. ... so given the inclement British weather with flights cancelled due to heavy snowfalls, I expected it to take quite a few weeks. But, it arrived in my letter box in Brisbane Australia today 21/12 2010. 6 days!!

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
auto
Posts: 4579
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by auto »

icyteru wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:36 am you can read it in my blog. :anjali:
your link is hijacked its full of ads having asian female underwear. It can happen if you sign in to somewhere, then the personal information can be sold and the next owner have some other things in mind like hosting a mailorder bride service.
budo
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by budo »

auto wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:07 pm
icyteru wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:36 am you can read it in my blog. :anjali:
your link is hijacked its full of ads having asian female underwear. It can happen if you sign in to somewhere, then the personal information can be sold and the next owner have some other things in mind like hosting a mailorder bride service.
It's not a good idea to bump a 7 year old thread, for reasons like this.

Maybe the mods should look into archiving old threads, so that members do not bump them, and instead can create new threads. A script could lock any thread where the last reply is X amount of years old.
User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 936
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by dylanj »

it's on suttacentral but my burmse friend said the translation differs significantly from theirs
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Coëmgenu »

auto wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:07 pm
icyteru wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:36 am you can read it in my blog. :anjali:
your link is hijacked its full of ads having asian female underwear. It can happen if you sign in to somewhere, then the personal information can be sold and the next owner have some other things in mind like hosting a mailorder bride service.
If such is the case it is prudent that the moderators remove this old link, I will notify them.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Post Reply