I would think that would result in the Buddha having given a very different teaching. One where being reborn or not, were talked about in equal terms with regard to suffering for one who ended craving. But where do we see such a teaching?Kenshou wrote:If the senses in themselves are not dukkha, only the clinging is dukkha, then why not undergo rebirth another thousand billion times?
To be the devil's advocate a little bit, if there's no craving for sense experience, what motivation is there for being reborn, either?
the great rebirth debate
Re: the great rebirth debate
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: the great rebirth debate
Well, since without craving rebirth is presumably impossible (or rather, naturally ends), we don't see that option considered.
(or so has been my impression)
(or so has been my impression)
Re: the great rebirth debate
It depends what kind of dukkha do we mean in that case. An Arahant doesn't feel mental pain (grief, anger, sadness, fear, etc). But even the Buddha can feel unpleasant bodily feeling. Even the Buddha is not exempt from dukkha due to change and dukkha inherent in formation.mikenz66 wrote: Does dukkha end at the point of nibbana or at the expiration of the body?
With metta,"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain (dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho), does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.207" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Whatever is felt is included in suffering." yaṃ kiñci vedayitaṃ taṃ dukkhasmi’nti - SN 36.11(1)
"All formations are stressful". Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti - Dhp 278
Alex
Re: the great rebirth debate
I'm uncomfortable with how much of an oversimplification that is. If you can all but destroy dukkha, leaving a scrap here and there, I'd say the path is still damn useful. Easing the pain before the final release (parinibbana, or death when there is only one life) still has merit even in a thought-system where easing the pain doesn't cause the final release.mikenz66 wrote:If there is only one life then if the complete cessation of dukkha does not happen instantaneously on attaining nibbana then the path would not appear to be particularly useful...
Also, in a one-life viewpoint, death doesn't necessarily mean the end of suffering and the acquisition of peace. It could be viewed that the death of an individual is just the end of that individual, and their suffering and/or peace. There is continuation though. Suffering can keep going on in others, and the same goes for peace. Meanwhile the dhamma can be there for whatever so-called individuals are alive at the time, available to cultivate peace and combat suffering.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Hi darvki,
Mike
Of course, you're right. It's oversimplified. And not very well expressed. But I thought it was enough to illustrate how the two views can tend to be connected.darvki wrote:I'm uncomfortable with how much of an oversimplification that is. If you can all but destroy dukkha, leaving a scrap here and there, I'd say the path is still damn useful. Easing the pain before the final release (parinibbana, or death when there is only one life) still has merit even in a thought-system where easing the pain doesn't cause the final release.mikenz66 wrote:If there is only one life then if the complete cessation of dukkha does not happen instantaneously on attaining nibbana then the path would not appear to be particularly useful...
Mike
Re: the great rebirth debate
You're right, they are related and I'm glad you brought light to that fact. One might call this new chapter in the thread "The Great Cessation of Dukkha Debate". Or maybe just "The Great Dukkha Debate" since it's ultimately about the nature of dukkha.
I think Alex123 addressed the crux of the topic a few posts back.
So: Did the Buddha suffer (to an extent)? Any canonical evidence? Does that idea strike anyone as a bizarre contradiction?
I think Alex123 addressed the crux of the topic a few posts back.
So: Did the Buddha suffer (to an extent)? Any canonical evidence? Does that idea strike anyone as a bizarre contradiction?
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Re: the great rebirth debate
In his final illness the Buddha made it clear that he was experiencing pain...there then could follow ( probably will) an exercise in speculation about whether he "suffered" from that pain......what we know is that he described himself as experiencing bodily distress. Personally i think a respectful curtain could well be drawn over the scene rather thank speculate.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
What do you think? Was it dukkha, or just unpleasant bodily feeling?Sanghamitta wrote:In his final illness the Buddha made it clear that he was experiencing pain...there then could follow ( probably will) an exercise in speculation about whether he "suffered" from that pain.......
Spiny
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Re: the great rebirth debate
I dont know Spiny. I suspect that no one else does either...which does not modify the need to tell us.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: the great rebirth debate
Is there anything satisfactory in unpleasant bodily feeling? Of course not. So then, that is the dukkha aspect of unpleasant feelings. Craving for the feelings to stop is additional dukkha, double dukkha. Mental dukkha on top of physical dukkha.Spiny O'Norman wrote: What do you think? Was it dukkha, or just unpleasant bodily feeling?
Spiny
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: the great rebirth debate
Spiny O'Norman wrote:What do you think? Was it dukkha, or just unpleasant bodily feeling?Sanghamitta wrote:In his final illness the Buddha made it clear that he was experiencing pain...there then could follow ( probably will) an exercise in speculation about whether he "suffered" from that pain.......
Spiny
Unpleasant bodily feeling IS included in Dukkha. Also, please remember that 5 aggregates have 3 characteristics: anicca, DUKKHA and anatta.
Results of past unwholesome kamma, called akusala kammavipāka, can happen to an Arahant who no longer has craving. In fact the body of the Arahant (that could be sickly) did occur due to past craving, and painful things that an Arahant experiences is due to bad kamma being made previously (in this life or up to many aeons ago).
So just because one no longer has craving, it doesn't mean that painful physical vipāka cannot occur, and it doesn't mean that there aren't any aggregates remaining that were due to past craving & kamma. Ex: Angulimala, Ven. Mahamoggallana's story, and even the Buddha did experience death like pains due to illness. Even the huge potential of paramis that the Buddha had didn't stop Him from experiencing excruciating sickness (DN16) or from attempt on his life by Devadatta (who managed to hurt Buddha's foot causing blood), or even from all the bodily discomforts of aging.
Ultimately when all 5 aggregates, including "aggregates devoid of clinging" cease, only then there cannot be anything to ever experience dukkhavedanā or akusala kammavipāka. Even if dukkha is due to clinging aggregates, the aggregates (especially the body) that an Arahant has now were due to clinging done prior to Arahatship. An arahant just doesn't do any new kamma. But results of past kamma can and do still occur.
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Re: the great rebirth debate
Yes, but we can't seem to reach a concensus on the nature of dukkha.Alex123 wrote: Also, please remember that 5 aggregates have 3 characteristics: anicca, DUKKHA and anatta.
Spiny
Re: the great rebirth debate
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Yes, but we can't seem to reach a concensus on the nature of dukkha.Alex123 wrote: Also, please remember that 5 aggregates have 3 characteristics: anicca, DUKKHA and anatta.
Spiny
the nature of dukkha is dukkha!
Also what is anicca is dukkha.
Since aggregates even of an arahant are anicca,
Therefore they are also dukkha.
As he was sitting there, the Blessed One said to him, "What do you think, Rahula — is the eye constant or inconstant?"
"Inconstant, lord."
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
"Stressful, lord."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[the sutta goes through 18 elements. There are also suttas that go in this way for 5 aggregates]
Re: the great rebirth debate
I believe that analysis is too simplistic, ignoring the multi-faceted nature of the word dukkha.the nature of dukkha is dukkha!
Also what is anicca is dukkha.
Since aggregates even of an arahant are anicca,
Therefore they are also dukkha.
Does the fact that the arahant is aware of the dukkha nature of what is anicca, that is, that it is unsatisfactory because of it's unreliability, mean that he also experiences dukkha on that account? Just 'cos he does, weather there's upadana in the equation or not?
It's true that in many suttas we have the simple progression of "what is anicca is dukkha and what is anicca and dukkha is anatta) etc., which is perfectly fine as short expression of the gist of it all, but the reason that I am unconvinced that the fact of anicca causes dukkha even without the help of upadana is that, in more precise teachings on the nature of dukkha and its origination (and cessation), craving/tanha/upadana/whatever-term-you-prefer is always part of the equation, as far as I have seen. For this reason it seems to me as if, when the shorter teachings are taken in context with the longer ones, it is not being said that impermanence itself causes dukkha regardless of weather attachment is involved, just because it does.
Five clinging aggregates, that is, pañcupādānakkhandhā, not pañcakkhandhā.Mahasatipatthanasutta, Thanissaro's translation wrote:Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.
(This is ignoring the exception of dukkha as simple bodily pain, that of course just happens inevitably whenever bodies are involved.)
But then, if impermanence itself leaves an inherent scrap of suffering somehow, it doesn't seem like a huge deal in the end. We still have a picture of arahants dwelling happily, equanimously, at ease, even with that residue. So if it's there it mustn't be so terrible, I suppose. Sounds pretty good to me.
Re: the great rebirth debate
'Rebirth' has no context here. - Dismissal of the Ego makes the implication farcical - http://www.abhayagiri.org/main/book/1788/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;