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Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Ingram, et al - "Hard Core Dharma" & claims of attainment

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:42 am


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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Individual » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:51 am

The best things in life aren't things.


upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:10 am

rightly said nathan, all the views on the matter are definitely worth of respect.

Dhammanando, I found these descriptions which seem to be at odds with eachother in several suttas, but I understand I might have a better view once I realize the truth of things directly.. Quotations wont do us much good in this field.. so I best leave it at that.

good night to all it is quite late here.

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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:43 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:45 am


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Dhammanando
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:18 am


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Dhammanando
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:21 am


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clw_uk
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:43 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:33 am

clw_uk: Like the Buddha said "Well, I've done it, and you can do it too, and here's you do it", I view this the same way.. I also find it very helpful.

anyway, in regards to the suttas, let me quote one passage which I find to be of utmost importance in this discussion:

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

If he was to say "don't believe anything until you've realized it for yourself, but you must believe the Suttas 100%, they are always right" that would have been different,
but the man is clearly telling us to take ANYTHING we've heard with a grain of salt until we've realized it, the Suttas included.

Basically that sums it up for me.. practice well. :namaste:

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Ben
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Ben » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:23 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Snowmelt
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Snowmelt » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:40 am

I composed a number of passionate, immoderate responses addressing the assertions of Daniel Ingram. The only thing I can feel pleased about at this point is that I did not actually post them ("... good is restraint in speech ..."). Suffice it to say that I will not be following any of his recommendations. I am blessed beyond words that those who drew me to Buddhism in the first place - Ajahn Chah, his students, and their students - continue to hold my heart in their hands. Kindly they are, dignified, quietly-spoken and simple.

upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:34 pm


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kc2dpt
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:49 pm

upekkha,

You have said a number of times now that as unawakened beings we do not know for certain if the suttas are true. I do not think any one here disputes this idea. But the fact that you seem to be overlooking is that this is a discussion forum for Buddhists. A Buddhist is one who tests the suttas to see if they are true. This testing is done by implementing the teachings found within the suttas and seeing where they lead. Likewise, if one rejects the suttas then they are not practicing Buddhism. That's fine if that's what one wants to do but then it makes no sense to say "I'm a Buddhist and I teach Buddhism but I reject the suttas." This is simply a nonsensical thing to say.

If you keep wanting to address every argument in every thread here with the response "Well, we don't know if the suttas are true" then you might want to ask yourself why you are participating in a Buddhist discussion.

Relevant to this thread, if one rejects all the Buddha's descriptions of arahantship then one cannot reasonably claim to be an arahant. It would be like saying "I reject the teaching that apples are red and have edible skin. I believe they are yellow and have inedible skin." What you're talking about is not an apple but rather a banana. Likewise, Ingram is clearly not talking about Buddhism but rather a religion of his own making. I think it is clear he is in fact saying Buddhism is false.

Rather than saying this is a book written by an arahant, it seems to be more accurate to say this is a book written by one who rejects the notion of arahantship as a false path.
- Peter


upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:21 pm


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clw_uk
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby clw_uk » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:27 pm

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upekkha
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby upekkha » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:59 pm


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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Individual » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:05 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:56 pm

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Dhammanando
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:09 pm


Snowmelt
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Re: Dhamma book written by arahat?

Postby Snowmelt » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:15 pm

To put Daniel Ingram's utterances into perspective: it is like a Christian saying that the Bible is nonsense, or like a Muslim saying that the Koran is nonsense. Such an assertion would make it clear that the speaker belonged to neither religion.

I think that just letting your mind wander where it wants is highly detrimental to advancement on the Path, and reading endless texts purporting to be about Buddhism, particularly those whose authors contradict the most basic tenets of the Pali Canon, involves allowing your mind to do just that. I think the reason why people do this is because they haven't the wisdom to stay with the Pali Canon; in the best Western tradition, they want endlessly to leap to the next shiny bauble, hopelessly and desultorily searching for a magic bullet that will make them fully Enlightened without effort ("Quick, give me an Enlightenment pill, I've only got five minutes before the match starts on TV!") This is proliferation and distraction and delusion; it will *never* lead to Enlightenment. Or, they are like water boatmen: skating across the surface of Buddhism, never diving in; this is a complete waste of time and effort. I think the only people who can expose themselves to this kind of stuff without risking ill effects are those monastics who have thoroughly digested and comprehended the Canon and its implications over many years, and who live it every day, all day. "Books, books, books. Too many, too many, too many. Dustbin, dustbin, dustbin."


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