Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

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Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby starter » Mon Dec 13, 2010 7:27 pm

Hi friend,

I'm studying Anapanasati sutta, and would like to know if "sabbakayam patisamveti" mean "Experiencing the entire body" or "Experiencing all bodies"? Ven. Thanissaro translated it as "sensitive to the entire body", but Ven. Buddhadasa referred it as "Experiencing all bodies" (both breath and flesh body). The early Chinese version had "experience all breaths". I wonder if "kayam" is singular or plural?

I found the following definition for "piti" and "sukha" in "A Glossary of Pali and Buddhist Terms":

piti: Rapture; bliss; delight. In meditation, a pleasurable quality in the mind that reaches full maturity upon the development of the second level of jhana.

sukha: Pleasure; ease; satisfaction. In meditation, a mental quality that reaches full maturity upon the development of the third level of jhana.

I feel both piti and sukha seem to be more bodily feelings instead of mental qualities. "piti" seems to be a strong feeling of energy "showers" in the body, while sukha (轻安?)seems to be an extraordinarily pleasant bodily feeling associated with very tranquil mental feeling which can last hours or days following strong piti. But I'm not sure about them.

I'm interested in figuring out the meanings of piti and sukha because Ven. Thanissaro interpreted "piti" as a sense of refreshment (bodily feeling) and "sukha" as a sense of pleasure/ease (a mental feeling) for steps 5 & 6 of anapanasati in Meditation4. This way of contemplating steps 5 & 6 seem to be better than the method I've been using (breathe in/out experiencing bodily feeling and mental feeling). But even the sense of refreshment and pleasure might not occur so easily during the contemplation.

Your help would be most appreciated. Metta,

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha" ?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:32 pm

I understand it as meaning, “Experiencing the entire breath” — that is, the beginning, middle, and end. Not following the breath down into the chest cavity, but experiencing the entire flow of the breath at the tip of the nose.

See A Manual of Respiration by the Venerable Ledi Sayādaw.
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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha" ?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:14 pm

Thanissaro Bhikkhu makes a note about this right at the bottom of his translation: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

2. The commentaries insist that "body" here means the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for the next step — without further explanation — refers to the breath as "bodily fabrication." If the Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath in such close proximity, he would have been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does below, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of reference). The step of breathing in and out sensitive to the entire body relates to the many similes in the suttas depicting jhana as a state of whole-body awareness (see MN 119).


(not trying to be contradictory towards Bhikkhu Pesala's post necessarily, I was going to post this anyway...)

As for how piti and sukha work, that's really going to be one of those subjective things.

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Nyana » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:09 am

starter wrote:I feel both piti and sukha seem to be more bodily feelings instead of mental qualities. "piti" seems to be a strong feeling of energy "showers" in the body, while sukha (轻安?)seems to be an extraordinarily pleasant bodily feeling associated with very tranquil mental feeling which can last hours or days following strong piti. But I'm not sure about them.

I'm interested in figuring out the meanings of piti and sukha because Ven. Thanissaro interpreted "piti" as a sense of refreshment (bodily feeling) and "sukha" as a sense of pleasure/ease (a mental feeling) for steps 5 & 6 of anapanasati in Meditation4. This way of contemplating steps 5 & 6 seem to be better than the method I've been using (breathe in/out experiencing bodily feeling and mental feeling). But even the sense of refreshment and pleasure might not occur so easily during the contemplation.

Hi Starter,

Here are a couple of resources related to pīti & sukha:


All the best,

Geoff

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby starter » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:17 pm

Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the very helpful links. For steps 5 & 6 of anapanasati, I think I'd better just contemplate on "experiencing bodily pleasure I breathe in ..." and "experiencing mental pleasure I breathe in ..." instead of trying to figure out the exact nature of piti and sukha. Metta,

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Reductor » Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:51 pm

starter wrote:Hi friend,

I'm studying Anapanasati sutta, and would like to know if "sabbakayam patisamveti" mean "Experiencing the entire body" or "Experiencing all bodies"? Ven. Thanissaro translated it as "sensitive to the entire body", but Ven. Buddhadasa referred it as "Experiencing all bodies" (both breath and flesh body). The early Chinese version had "experience all breaths". I wonder if "kayam" is singular or plural?


I couldn't say if kaya means one or many. Not my field.

However, I do think that the third step refers to the expansion of awareness to the whole body and not just the breath body. I prefer that to the usual interpretation of the three phases of the breath because the measuring of the breath in steps 1 and 2 seem to incorporate the three phases already.

So what I'm usually left with is akin to what Buddhadasa seems to refer to above. Take note that I've not read his works, so I'm going by what you quote. But at step 3 and 4 my perceptions of the body become more pronounced; I begin to experience the breath movement of the body, the sense of those body parts that are not moving, and the experience of the body's posture and size.

Perhaps 'bodies' is a close interpretation?


I found the following definition for "piti" and "sukha" in "A Glossary of Pali and Buddhist Terms":


Good luck with defining those precisely. It'll drive you mad. Even if you find others with very similar meditation experiences I don't think you'll find someone that understands piti and sukha in exactly the same way.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Virgo » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:23 pm

Piti, by Nina Van Gorkom (from Cetasikas):


Piti, translated as enthusiasm, zest or rapture, is another cetasika among the six "particulars" which arise with cittas of the four jatis but not with every citta. Piti can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya

When we think of enthusiasm we presume that it is always kusala. We praise people who are enthusiastic. However, when we study the Abhidhamma we learn that enthusiasm is not always kusala, that it arises also with akusala cittas. There are many more akusala cittas in our life than kusala cittas and thus, when there is enthusiasm it is more often akusala than kusala. Don't we often take for kusala what is in fact akusala? Through the study of the Abhidhamma we will have more understanding of kusala and akusala and of the different conditions for their arising.

The Visuddhimagga (lV, 94) gives the following definition of piti:

...It refreshes (pinayati, gladdens, satisfies), thus it is happiness (piti) (1 Pinayati is the causative of pineti which means: to gladden, please, satisfy or invigorate.). It has the characteristic of satisfaction (2 The English translation uses here: endearment.) (sampiyayana). Its function is to refresh the body and the mind; or its function is to pervade (thrill with rapture). It is manifested as elation..

The Atthasalini ( I, Part lV, Chapter 1, 115) gives a similar definition of piti (3 see also Dhammasangani 9).

Piti takes an interest in the object which citta cognizes and which is also experienced by the accompanying cetasikas. It is satisfied, delighted with the object and it "refreshes" citta and the accompanying cetasikas.

In the case of the kamavacara cittas (cittas of the sense-sphere) piti arises with the cittas which are accompanied by pleasant feeling (somanassa). Thus, whenever there is somanassa, there is also piti. Piti is not the same as pleasant feeling, its characteristic and function are different. Piti is not feeling, vedanakkhandha, but sankharakkhandha (the khandha which includes all cetasikas except vedana and sanna).

Pleasant feeling experiences the flavour of the object, its function is to exploit in one way or other the desirable aspect of the object (Vis. XIV, 128). Piti does not feel, its characteristic is, as we have seen, satisfaction and its function is refreshing or invigorating body and mind, or to pervade them with rapture. Piti takes an interest in the object and is delighted with it, it has its own specific function while it assists the citta; its function is different from the function of feeling.

The Visuddhimagga (IV, 100) explains in the section on the first jhana the difference between pleasant feeling (sukha, translated here as "bliss") and piti (translated here as "happiness") which are both jhana-factors. We read:

And whenever the two are associated, happiness (piti) is the contentedness at getting a desirable object, and bliss (sukha) is the actual experience of it when got. Where there is happiness there is bliss; but where there is bliss there is not necessarily happiness (1 This is in the case of the rupavacara cittas of the fourth stage of jhana (of the five-fold System), which are accompanied by happy feeling, sukha, but not by piti.) Happiness is included in the sankharakkhandha; bliss is included in the vedanakkhandha. If a man exhausted in a desert saw or heard about a pond on the edge of a wood, he would have happiness; (he went into the wood's shade and used the water, he would have bliss...

The different words which are used to describe pleasant feeling and enthusiasm and also the above-quoted simile can help us to have theoretical knowledge of these two realities. If there is mindfulness of realities when they appear, a more precise understanding of their characteristics can be developed. However, we should not try to "catch" particular realities, it depends on conditions of which reality sati is aware.

As we have seen, in the case of the kamavacara cittas, piti arises with the cittas which are accompanied by pleasant feeling. Whenever there is interest in the object and delight with it there is also pleasant feeling; in such cases there cannot be indifferent feeling or unpleasant feeling.

In the case of akusala cittas, piti arises with the types of lobha-mula-cittas which are accompanied by pleasant feeling (1 See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 4.). When the lobha-mula-citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling, the lobha is more intense than when it is accompanied by indifferent feeling. Piti which arises together with lobha-mula-citta accompanied by pleasant feeling takes an interest in the desirable object, it is delighted, thrilled with it. For example, when we have thoroughly enjoyed listening to beautiful music we may applaud with great enthusiasm. When we admire a musician, a painter or a famous sportsman, there may be many moments of lobha-mula-citta with piti. Whenever we are attached to an object with pleasant feeling, there is also piti. The object may be a pleasant sight, a beautiful sound, a fragrant odour, a delicious flavour, a pleasant tangible object or an agreeable object experienced through the mind-door. There are many moments of akusala piti we are not aware of.

Piti does not arise with dosa-mula-citta. When dosa-mula-citta arises, the citta dislikes the object and then there cannot be at the same time a pleasurable interest. Piti does not arise either with moha-mula-citta; at the moment of moha-mula-citta there is no enthusiasm, .

As regards ahetuka cittas (2 See Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 8 and 9. There are eighteen types of ahetuka cittas, without akusala hetus or sobhana hetus, "roots". They are the sense-door-adverting-consciousness, the "five pairs" of sense-cognitions (seeing, hearing, etc.), two types of receiving-consciousness, three types of investigating-consciousness, the mind-door-adverting-consciousness and the smile-producing consciousness of the arahat.), only the two types which are accompanied by pleasant feeling arise with piti: 'one type of santirana-citta which is kusala vipaka and investigates an extraordinarily pleasant object (3 Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 13.) and the hasituppada-citta, the smile-producing consciousness of the arahat (4 Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 9.).

When there is seeing, which is one of the dvi-pancavinnanas (sense-cognitions), there is no delight or enthusiasm about visible object, seeing merely sees it. If visible object is an extraordinarily pleasant object, the santirana-citta in that process which investigates visible object is accompanied by pleasant feeling and piti. The javana-cittas of that process may or may not be accompanied by piti. If they are accompanied by pleasant feeling they are also accompanied by piti.

As regards the kamavacara sobhana cittas (beautiful cittas of the sense-sphere), only the types of citta which are accompanied by pleasant feeling arise with piti. when we, with generosity and full of joy, help someone else, the kusala citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling and also by piti which invigorates body and mind. Even if there was tiredness before, it is gone; one is refreshed. The same may happen when one reads a sutta with kusala citta accompanied by joy and enthusiasm. At such a moment one is not bored or tired, there is piti which takes a pleasurable interest in the object.

Sometimes we are full of joy and enthusiasm while we help others, while we give something away or while we are performing other ways of kusala, but it is not always possible to have joy and enthusiasm at such moments. There are also moments of kusala citta accompanied by indifferent feeling, upekkha, and then there is no piti. It depends on conditions whether piti arises or not. when one has great confidence in kusala and sees the benefit of it there are conditions for the arising of joy and enthusiasm while applying oneself to it. When kusala citta with pleasant feeling arises the accompanying piti invigorates the citta and the other cetasikas. viriya, for example, is intensified by piti. We may be able to notice that, when there is joy and enthusiasm for kusala, we also have more energy to perform it.

There is another aspect of piti: it can become an enlightenment factor. The other enlightenment factors are, as we have seen, mindfulness, investigation of the Dhamma (dhamma vicaya), energy (viriya), calm (passaddhi), concentration (samadhi) and equanimity (upekkha) (1 see Chapter 9, viriya.) . when the enlightenment factors have been developed through satipatthana, they lead to the realization of the four noble Truths. when we have just started to be mindful of nama and rupa, we cannot expect the enlightenment factors to be developed yet. They will develop through satipatthana.

The Atthasalini (75) mentions the following factors which are conducive to the arising of the enlightenment factor of piti:

...recollection of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha, of sila, of generosity, of devas, of peace (nibbana), avoidance of rough (I.e. ill-tempered persons), serving meek persons, reflection on a Suttanta which instills confidence and a tendency to all this.

When we read a sutta, ponder over it and test the meaning by being mindful of the realities the Buddha taught time and again we can prove the truth of his teachings. Thus our confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the sangha can grow and we will be inspired to continue to develop the eightfold Path. There can be conditions for the arising of enthusiasm which invigorates citta; and the accompanying cetasikas. Also piti can be object of mindfulness so that panna can see it as it is, as not self. We should remember that without the development of satipatthana the enlightenment factor of piti and also the other enlightenment factors cannot develop.

We read in the "Mahanama-sutta" (GradualSayings,Book of the sixes, chapter I, 10) that the Buddha recommended Mahanama to recollect the Buddha, the Dhamma, the sangha, sila, generosity and devas (their good qualities). According to the Visuddhimagga Mahanama was a sotapanna, thus, he had right understanding of nama and rupa and he did not take any reality for self. We read:

...Mahanama, what time the ariyan disciple minds the Tathagata, his heart is never overwhelmed by passion, never overwhelmed by hatred. never overwhelmed by delusion; then, verily, is the way of his heart made straight because of the Tathagata. And with his heart's ways straightened. Mahanama, the ariyan disciple becomes zealous of the goal, zealous of Dhamma, wins the joy that is linked to Dhamma; and of his joy zest (piti) is born; when his mind is rapt in zest, his whole being becomes calm; calm in being, he experiences ease; and of him who dwells at ease the heart is composed.
Mahanama, of this ariyan disciple it is said: Among uneven folk he lives evenly; among troubled folk he lives untroubled; with the ear for Dhamma won, he makes become the ever minding of the Buddha.

The same is said with regard to the other recollections. According to the Visuddhimagga (VII, 121) only the ariyan disciple can cultivate the above mentioned subjects with success, since the non-ariyan cannot really fathom the meaning of these subjects. If one has not attained enlightenment, how could one know what it means to be enlightened and how could one clearly understand the meaning of "Buddha"? Nevertheless, also the non-ariyan can think of the Buddha with confidence and then piti may arise as well.

We cannot induce the arising of kusala piti, it can only arise because of its own conditions. shortly after kusala piti has arisen and fallen away, attachment is bound to arise. we may feel very satisfied about "our kusala" and we may find it very important to have piti. we may think that it can last, but in reality it falls away immediately. It is essential to realize the difference between kusala citta and akusala citta; thus we will see that there are not kusala cittas all the time, even when we think that we are performing kusala. we may expect pleasant things from other people, we like to be praised by them, we want to show others our good qualifies and our knowledge, or we are attached to the company of people. Defilements are so deeply rooted and they arise whenever there is an opportunity for their arising. There are many objects which can condition lobha and lobha can be Accompanied by somanassa and piti. Enthusiasm which is unwholesome can arise very shortly after enthusiasm which is wholesome and it is hard to know their difference. we may find it discouraging to discover that there are many more akusala cittas than kusala cittas, but at the moment of knowing akusala citta as it is there is right understanding. At such a moment the citta is kusala citta and there is no aversion nor feeling of discouragement.

Not only maha-kusala cittas, kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, which are accompanied by somanassa arise with piti, but also the maha-vipakacittas and the maha-kiriyacittas which are accompanied by somanassa arise with piti. As regards maha-vipakacittas, these are produced by kamma, and thus it depends on the kamma which produces the maha-vipakacitta whether it is accompanied by somanassa and piti or not. Among those who are reborn with maha-vipakacitta, some are born with somanassa and piti, others with upekkha and in that case there is no piti. If one is born with somanassa and piti, all bhavanga-cittas of that life and also the cuti-citta (dying-consciousness) are accompanied by somanassa and piti as well (1The other jhana-factors are: vitakka, vicara, sukha (happy feeling) and samadhi.)

Piti has many intensities. The Visuddhimagga (IV, 94) and the Atthasalini II, Part IV, Chapter 1, 115, 116) explain that there are five kinds of piti. We read in the Visuddhimagga :

... But it is of five kinds as minor happiness, momentary happiness, showering happiness, uplifting happiness, and pervading (rapturous) happiness.
Herein, minor happiness is only able to raise the hairs on the body. (Abhidhamma in Daily Life, Chapter 11). If the function of patisandhi is performed by an ahetuka vipakacitta (santirana-citta accompanied by upekkha which can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka), piti does not accompany the citta. Momentary happiness is like flashes of lightning at different moments. Showering happiness breaks over the body again and again like waves an the sea shore.
Uplifting happiness can be powerful enough to levitate the body and make it spring into the air...
But when pervading (rapturous happiness) arises, the whole body is completely pervaded, like a filled bladder, like a rock cavern invaded by a huge inundation (lV, 98).

Piti is able to condition bodily phenomena. The "uplifting happiness" which is the fourth kind of piti can even levitate the body. One example given by the Visuddhimagga and the Atthasalini is the case of a young woman whose parents did not allow her to go to the monastery to listen to the Dhamma. She looked at the shrine which was lit by moonlight, saw people worshipping and circumambulating the shrine and heard the chanting. Then "uplifting happiness" made her jump into the air and arrive at the monastery before her parents.

In the case of kamavacara cittas; piti always arises together with somanassa. In the case of the jhana-cittas, this is "not always so. Piti is one of the jhana-factors which are developed in samatha in order to inhibit the hindrances. Piti inhibits the hindrance which is ill-will (vyapada). When there is delight in a meditation subject there is no ill-will or boredom. As we just read, there are five kinds of piti with different intensities. The fifth kind of piti the "pervading happiness", which has the greatest intensity, is the "root of absorption" and "comes by growth into association with absorption" (Vis. IV, 99).

At the first stage of rupa-jhana all five jhana-factors arise with the jhanacitta. At each of the higher stages of jhana the jhanacitta becomes more refined and more tranquil, and the jhana-factors are successively abandoned. At the second stage (of the five-fold system) vitakka is abandoned and at the third stage vicara. At that stage there are three jhana-factors remaining: piti, happy feeling (sukha) and concentration (samadhi). At the fourth stage piti has been abandoned but happy feeling still arises. In the case of the kamavacara cittas, piti arises whenever there is pleasant feeling, but this is not so in the case of the jhana-citta of the fourth stage of jhana. The jhanacitta without piti is more tranquil, more refined. The kind of piti which has been abandoned at this stage is the "pervading happiness" which is of the highest intensity. The person who has experienced this kind of piti and is able to forego it is worthy of praise as stated by the Atthasalini (I, Pan v, Chapters 111, 175).

At the highest stage of rupa-jhana (the fourth of the four-fold system and the fifth of the five-fold system) the jhana-factor of sukha has been abandoned and piti does not arise either at this stage. As regards arupavacara cittas, they are of the same type as the rupavacara cittas of the highest stage of rupa-jhana, and thus they are not accompanied by piti. As regards lokuttara cittas, they are not always accompanied by piti, this depends on different conditions (1 See Atthasalini II, Part VIIl, Chapter 1, 228, and Vis. xxi, 112. For details on cittas accompanied by piti, See Appendix 5.).

There are many different kinds of piti as it accompanies different types of citta. The piti which accompanies lobha-mula-citta is entirely different from the piti which accompanies kusala citta. The piti which accompanies jhanacitta is again very different. As we have seen, the "pervading happiness", the fifth kind of piti which is of the highest degree, is the "root of absorption". Piti which is an enlightenment factor and which develops through mindfulness of nama and rupa is different again from all other kinds. We read in the Kindred Sayings (IV, Salayatana-vagga, Part II, Kindred Sayings about Feeling, Chapter III, 29, Purified and free from carnal taint) about "zest", piti, that is carnal, piti that is not carnal and piti that is still less carnal:

And what, monks, is the zest that is carnal?
There are five sensual elements, monks. What five? Objects
cognizable by the eye, objects desirable, pleasant, delightful and dear,
passion-fraught, inciting to lust... There are objects cognizable by the
ear... the nose... the tongue... There are things cognizable by the
body, tangibles, desirable, pleasant... These, monks, are the true
Sensual elements. Whatsoever zest, monks, arises owing to these five,
that is called "zest that is carnal".

We then lead about the " zest that is not carnal", which is piti accompanying the jhanacitta. At the moment of jhanacitta carnal zest is temporarily subdued, one is not infatuated with the five "sensual elements". We read about the "zest that is still less carnal than the other kinds:

...And what monks, is the zest that is still less carnal than the other?
That zest which arises in a monk who has destroyed the asavas (1 Asavas or "cankers" are a group into which defilements are classified.). who can look upon his heart as released from lust- that zest, monks. is called "the zest that is still less carnal than the other"

The same is said about pleasure, indifference and " release", which can be carnal, not carnal and still less carnal. The term "still less carnal" refers to the arahat who has eradicated all forms of attachment so that it never arises again. This sutta reminds us again to be aware of the realities appearing through the different doorways, one at a time. We are usually so absorbed in people and things that we forget that they are not realities, only concepts. It is not a person which is experienced through the eyes, but only a kind of rupa which is visible object and does not last. We are infatuated with the objects we experience and we do not realize when there is "piti which is carnal". Piti which is carnal can arise on account of all the objects we experience through the six doors. The sutta illustrates how different piti is when it arises with different types of citta. Piti is conditioned by the accompanying dhammas and, in its tun, it conditions the accompanying dhammas. Piti is sankhara dhamma, not self. We may find it difficult to know when enthusiasm is wholesome and when it is unwholesome, but through mindfulness of it when it appears its characteristic can be known more precisely.






Questions

i When we give a gift to someone and there is somanassa (pleasant feeling), is there piti as well?
ii What is the function of piti which arises with kusala citta?
iii When we are helping someone with pleasant feeling and enthusiasm, is there kusala piti all the time?
iv How can we know the difference between kusala piti and akusala piti?
v Does piti arise with each kusala citta?
vi with how many types of lobha-mula-citta does piti arise?
vii Which types of vipakacitta are accompanied by piti?
Viii Does piti always arise together with pleasant feeling, no matter of what plane of consciousness the citta is which piti accompanies?
ix Piti can be an enlightenment factor. How can we cultivate the enlightenment factor of piti?
x Which factors can condition kusala citta with piti and somanassa?
xi Can recollections on the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha be helpful even to those who are not ariyans and can therefore not really understand the meaning of Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha? In what way can they be helpful?

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby starter » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:17 pm

Hello Virgo,

My sincere thanks to your great help. Your post gave me some more understanding of piti (but as a beginner I need a pali-English dictionary to comprehend your message :tongue:). I agree with you that We cannot induce the arising of kusala piti/sukha, it can only arise because of its own conditions.” But I don’t quite agree that “shortly after kusala piti has arisen and fallen away, attachment is bound to arise.” Probably we can warn ourselves not to become attached to it since it’s also a conditioned fabrication (anicca) which brings dukkha as well when it disappears and doesn’t come again at will. At first I wonder why the Buddha taught us "experiencing piti/sukha I shall breathe in/out" (which sounds like a desire/attachment to piti/sukha) in anapanasati, but I figured out anapanasati seems to be meant for the practitioners who really understand and have mastered piti/sukha without attachment to them, who can induce piti/sukha at will to tranquilize the body and mind in samadhi in order to practice the 4th tetrad -- gain penetrating insight and liberation. Of course other practitioners can also practice anapanasati at the levels corresponding to their comprehensions.

According to the Visuddhimagga’s classification of piti (as minor, momentary, showering , uplifting, and pervading rapture), piti is not only a mental quality but also a bodily energy flow. This understanding leads to my new comprehension of the enlightenment factors of energy, tranquility and samadhi: energy (bodily energy flow which can unblock our energy channels) -- piti/sukha (which probably disappear when all the energy channels of our whole body are unblocked and connected) -- tranquility of body and mind -- samadhi. I also realized the prime importance of mastering piti/sukha via samadhi meditation in our practice. Without piti/sukha, we cannot gain lasting bodily and mental tranquility, and cannot really enter or master deep samadhi/jhana (how can we enter jhana if our body feels very uncomfortable?), and hence probably can't surpress the lust/defilements to gain penetrating insight and liberation. As the Buddha advised, we really need to gain jhana first before doing insight meditation (in the real sense). Too early mix-up of insight meditation with samadhi meditation will likely lead to no real jhana (no bodily energy and piti/sukha). Fortunately I separated my meditations into two (one for samadhi and one for vipasana) from the very beginning, and I hope my samadhi and insight can go hand in hand which can promote each other. But as a beginner, I'd appreciate any comments and advice.

Metta,

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Virgo » Thu Dec 16, 2010 12:08 am

Thanks Starter. It is actually from Nina Van Gorkom's book, Cetasikas.

You have a very interesting post. I hope everything works out well for you. I would suggest you read some more, for example Nina's whole book on cetasikas, or mental factors.

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Dmytro » Fri Dec 17, 2010 10:30 am

Hi Starter,

starter wrote:I'm studying Anapanasati sutta, and would like to know if "sabbakayam patisamveti" mean "Experiencing the entire body" or "Experiencing all bodies"? Ven. Thanissaro translated it as "sensitive to the entire body", but Ven. Buddhadasa referred it as "Experiencing all bodies" (both breath and flesh body). The early Chinese version had "experience all breaths". I wonder if "kayam" is singular or plural?


The most early and reliable explanation is given in Patisambhidamagga:

How is it that (5) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the whole body;' (6) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out ac­quainted with the whole body'?

[Analysis of the object]

Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body.

What is the mental body?

Feeling, perception, volition, contact, atten­tion, and mentality are the mental body, and also what are called mind fabrications: these are the mental body.

What is the material body?

The four great elements and the forms derived from clinging to the four great elements, the in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness], and also what are called body fabrications: this is the material body.

How is he acquainted with these bodies? When he understands unification of mind and non-distraction through long in-breaths, his mindfulness is founded. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies. When he under­stands unification of mind and non-distraction through long out­breaths ... through short in-breaths ... through short out-breaths, his mindfulness is founded. By means of that mindfulness and that knowledge he is acquainted with those bodies.

When he adverts [to the three trainings of higher virtue (adhisila), higher mind (adhicitta), and higher discernment (adhipanna)], he is acquainted with those bodies. When he knows, he is acquainted with those bodies. When he sees ... reviews, steadies his mind ... resolves with faith ... exerts effort ... establishes mindfulness ... concentrates mind ... When he understands with understanding ... When he directly knows what is to be directly known ... When he fully understands what is to be fully understood ... When he abandons what is to be abandoned ... When he develops what is to be developed ... When he realizes what is to be realized, he is acquainted with those bodies. That is how those bodies are experienced.


http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html

Vimuttimagga gives similar explanation:

(3) "'Experiencing the whole body, I breathe in,' thus he trains himself:" In two ways he knows the whole body, through non-confusion and through the object. Q. What is the knowledge of the whole body through non-confusion? A. A yogin practises mindfulness of respiration and develops concentration through contact accompanied by joy and bliss. Owing to the experiencing of contact accompanied by joy and bliss the whole body becomes non-confused. Q. What is the knowledge of the whole body through the object? A. The incoming breath and the outgoing breath comprise the bodily factors dwelling in one sphere. The object of respiration and the mind and the mental properties are called "body." These bodily factors are called "body." Thus should the whole body be known.


http://www.forum.websangha.org/viewtopi ... 0462#10462

However later sources, Visuddhimagga and Atthakatha, interpret this as only the "breath body":

Sabbakayapatisamvedi Assasissami... passasissamiti sikkhati... = "Experiencing the whole body I shall breathe in... breathe out, thinking thus, he trains himself." He trains himself with the following idea: I shall breathe in making known, making clear, to myself the beginning, middle, and end of the whole body of breathings in; I shall breathe out making known, making clear, to myself the beginning, middle and end of the whole body of breathings out. And he breathes in and breathes out with consciousness associated with knowledge making known, making clear, to himself the breaths."

"To one bhikkhu, indeed, in the tenuous diffused body of in- breathing or body of out-breathing only the beginning becomes clear; not the middle or the end. He is able to lay hold of only the beginning. In the middle and at the end he is troubled. To another the middle becomes clear and not the beginning or the end. To a third only the end becomes clear; the beginning and the middle do not become clear and he is able only to lay hold of the breath at the end. He is troubled at the beginning and at the middle. To a fourth even all the three stages become clear and he is able to lay hold of all; he is troubled nowhere. For pointing out that this subject of meditation should be developed after the manner of the fourth one, the Master said: Experiencing... He trains himself."

"Since in the earlier way of the practice of this meditation there was nothing else to be done but just breathing in and breathing out, it is said: He thinking, I breathe in... understands... and since thereafter there should be endeavor for bringing about knowledge and so forth, it is said, Experiencing the whole body I shall breathe in."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#body

Mahanama sutta mentions in similar context the physical body:

At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

Yasmiṃ, mahānāma, samaye ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati, nevassa tasmiṃ samaye rāgapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na dosapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na mohapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti; ujugatamevassa tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti tathāgataṃ ārabbha. Ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vediyati, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. Ayaṃ vuccati, mahānāma, ariyasāvako visamagatāya pajāya samappatto viharati, sabyāpajjāya pajāya abyāpajjo viharati, dhammasotasamāpanno buddhānussatiṃ bhāveti.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta, Dmytro

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby yuttadhammo » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:28 am

Dmytro wrote:However later sources, Visuddhimagga and Atthakatha, interpret this as only the "breath body":


Thinking about this a bit, I wonder if the two interpretations really are different. At the moment of contemplating the breath, from an abhidhamma point of view, the entire body and mind is the experience of the breath - the "whole body" being merely a concept. The Vism-ṭīkā has an interesting explanation:

sabbakāyapaṭisaṃvedī ti sabbassa kāyassa paṭi paṭi paccekaṃ sammadeva vedanasīlo jānanasīlo, tassa vā paṭi paṭi sammadeva vedo etassa atthi, taṃ vā paṭi paṭi sammadeva vedamānoti attho. tattha tattha sabbaggahaṇena assāsādikāyassa anavasesapariyādāne siddhepi anekakalāpasamudāyabhāvato tassa sabbesampi bhāgānaṃ saṃvedanadassanatthaṃ paṭisaddaggahaṇaṃ. tattha sakkaccakārībhāvadassanatthaṃ saṃsaddaggahaṇanti imamatthaṃ dassento "sakalassā" tiādimāha. tattha yathā samānepi assāsapassāsesu yogino paṭipattividhāne paccekaṃ sakkaccaṃyeva paṭipajjitabbanti dassetuṃ visuṃ desanā katā, evaṃ tamevatthaṃ dīpetuṃ satipi atthassa samānatāya "sakalassā"tiādinā padadvayassa visuṃ visuṃ atthavaṇṇanā katāti veditabbaṃ.


To lazy (and inept) to translate, but the point I think is to see the continuous arising and ceasing of the physical and mental components in their entirety. At the moment of breathing, this means seeing the whole of the breath, along with the mind that experiences it.
Last edited by yuttadhammo on Fri Dec 17, 2010 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:56 pm

thereductor wrote:So what I'm usually left with is akin to what Buddhadasa seems to refer to above. Take note that I've not read his works, so I'm going by what you quote. But at step 3 and 4 my perceptions of the body become more pronounced; I begin to experience the breath movement of the body, the sense of those body parts that are not moving, and the experience of the body's posture and size.


That's the way I've experienced it. And the first tetrad of MN118 seems to describe a simultaneous awareness of both breath and body:

Anapanasati Sutta: Mindfulness of Breathing translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby starter » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:44 pm

Hello Bhante yuttadhammo and other friends,

Thanks for your very helpful input.

"... I wonder if the two interpretations really are different. At the moment of contemplating the breath, from an abhidhamma point of view, the entire body and mind is the experience of the breath - the "whole body" being merely a concept. ... the point I think is to see the continuous arising and ceasing of the physical and mental components in their entirety. At the moment of breathing, this means seeing the whole of the breath, along with the mind that experiences it."

Very good point. I agree that we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, without trying to separate them into individual parts while practicing anapanasati. Metta,

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Virgo » Fri Dec 17, 2010 11:57 pm

starter wrote:Very good point. I agree that we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, without trying to separate them into individual parts while practicing anapanasati. Metta,

Starter

Try to separate? They are already made up of individual parts. :D

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby starter » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:18 am

How to give rise to a sense of rapture, refreshment?

"... perceive the breath as the whole-body energy flow ..."

"Think of every part of the body being connected, all the energy channels in the body being connected, so that the breath energy spreads through them instantly and automatically, independently of the in-and-out breath, without your having to do anything to breathe it in or out. Here you're using one of the aggregates, the aggregate of perception, to help calm the breath down. And you notice that it does also induce a sense of piti, which is usually translated as "rapture," although in some cases it's not quite as strong as what we would ordinarily call "rapture." It's more a sense of refreshment. The body feels full, satisfied. It's as if every little cell in the body is getting to breathe to its heart's content, and is not getting squeezed by the other cells in the process. A sense of ease will come along with this. Once the body has been really refreshed in this way, things will begin to calm down even further.

... if you follow the Buddha's steps, learning how to master the steps he recommends for you to experiment and explore, the breath does become a path [to nibbana]. " (Ven. Thanissaro Meditation4)

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:21 am

starter wrote:I agree that we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, without trying to separate them into individual parts while practicing anapanasati. Metta,


I'm still relatively new to MN118 myself, but the impression I have is that it's about using the breath as a vehicle to explore and experience different aspects of nama-rupa, ie body, feelings, mind, and mind-objects. So there is effectively a progression through these various aspects, with the breath providing continuity. I think.... ;)

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Nyana » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:23 pm

starter wrote:Hi Geoff,

Thanks for the very helpful links. For steps 5 & 6 of anapanasati, I think I'd better just contemplate on "experiencing bodily pleasure I breathe in ..." and "experiencing mental pleasure I breathe in ..." instead of trying to figure out the exact nature of piti and sukha.

Hi Starter,

These phenomena are quite clearly differentiated and defined in the Paṭisambhidāmagga Ānāpānassatikathā:

    How is it that he trains thus: 'Experiencing pīti, I will breathe in;' he trains thus: 'Experiencing pīti, I will breathe out'?

    What is pīti?...

    Any joy (pīti), gladness (pāmojja), delight (āmodanā), joyfulness (pamodanā), shining mirth (bhāsa pabhāsa), felicity (vitti), elation (odagya), satisfaction (attamantā), and mental uplift (cittassa), is pīti....

    How is it that he trains thus: 'Experiencing sukha, I will breathe in;' he trains thus: 'Experiencing sukha, I will breathe out'?

    Pleasure (sukha): there are two kinds of pleasure, bodily pleasure and mental pleasure.

    What is bodily pleasure?

    Any bodily well-being, bodily pleasure, well-­being and pleasure felt as born of body contact, welcome satisfactory feeling born of body contact, is bodily pleasure.

    What is mental pleasure?

    Any mental well-being, mental pleasure, well-­being and pleasure felt as born of mental contact, welcome pleasant feeling born of mental contact, is mental pleasure.

And as jhāna factors, Peṭakopadesa 7.72:

    The twofold bodily and mental pain does not arise in one steadied in directed thought and evaluation, and the twofold bodily and mental pleasure does arise. The mental pleasure thus produced from directed thought is pīti, while the bodily pleasure is bodily feeling.

All the best,

Geoff

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby starter » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:41 pm

Hi friends,

Many thanks for all your helpful comments. I read MN 118 carefully again and noticed in particular:

"I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself [not the flesh body or mental body]."

Although we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, the sentence "experiencing the whole body I breathe in/out" in the sutta itself seems to mean following the entire breath (a very good way to concentrate the mind), instead of pervading the breath sensation to the whole (flesh) body which doesn't seem to be remaining "focused on the body (breath) in & itself".

It seems to me that “Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance" in MN 10 also refers to the in-&-out breath as far as Mindfulness of breathing is done.

Metta,

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Kenshou » Tue Dec 21, 2010 8:59 pm

"I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself [not the flesh body or mental body]."*

Although we can just treat the whole physical body (including both the breath body and the flesh body) and the mental body as an entirety, the sentence "experiencing the whole body I breathe in/out" in the sutta itself seems to mean following the entire breath (a very good way to concentrate the mind), instead of pervading the breath sensation to the whole (flesh) body which doesn't seem to be remaining "focused on the body (breath) in & itself".

Sounds to me as if the statement "this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself" is showing how the breath is a thing tied up with the body (a bodily fabrication), which is why when we develop mindfulness of breathing we develop mindfulness of the physical body. If you watch the breath closely you'll notice that the process of breathing has a subtle impact on the entire body. Which is why mindfulness of short/long/in/out breathing (that is, breathing in general) transitions well into all-around bodily awareness [3rd step], which then transitions well into a more intimate knowledge of what's going on in the body, and pacifying those processes (that is, "calming bodily fabrication", (including the breathing), [4th step]) for the sake of building a stable platform for building deeper concentration.

However I do agree that the Anapanasati sutta doesn't say anything quite like "spreading breath energy" which some teachers recommend, but I think it's probably just another tool for reaching the same end.

It seems to me that “Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance" in MN 10 also refers to the in-&-out breath as far as Mindfulness of breathing is done.
Except that the Satipatthana Sutta goes on to explain "body" fairly unambiguously in terms of the physical body. I won't quote it, because it's long, but it's right after the portion on breathing. Which relates back to another thing, that this first quote* from MN 118 is from 1 of 4 parts showing how the tetrads of anapanasati relate to the 4 satipatthana. I believe that since the 1st satipatthana appears to be referring to the usual physical body, it can be inferred that the 1st tetrad of anapanasati also deals with the physical body, otherwise they really wouldn't be compared in that way.

Double-edit: Oh, I must have read too quickly, I now noticed that you said "as far as Mindfulness of breathing is done". I guess imo saying that in the context of anapanasati "body" as a satipatthana takes on another meaning of "breath body", excluding "body" in the usual sense, doesn't quite make sense.

In short I believe what's going on here is that because the breath is something tied up within the body, it is a good tool for developing mindfulness of the body. I also kind of suspect that being aware of the whole duration of the breath is implied in the first 2 steps of anapanasati anyway.

Edit: I just remembered that this is the Pali forum, whoops. Eh, no harm done.

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Re: Meaning of "sabbakayam", "piti" and "sukha"?

Postby Parth » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:28 am

Sabbakayam is a state that one reaches either at a high end of udaya vyaya nana or bhanga nana onwards. Where along with in coming breath one automatically observes sensation of entire body and similar with out going breath, piti and sukha are the resultants of this deep state of meditation. Dont wish for it because you cant wish for it, just practise Vipassana - as taught by Shri S.N. Goenka. (I experienced these things there, so know for a fact that the path is correct - in no way do I mean other schools are wrong but do know that VRI path is correct).

Regards& Metta

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