the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Kenshou wrote:So I guess my bottom line is that when seen with wisdom what are conventionally called unpleasant feelings really don't have to be unpleasant.
It seems to me that this aspect of dukkha consists of aversion to unpleasant feelings, ie not wanting the unpleasant feelings. So if one can fully accept the unpleasant feeling, aversion and therefore dukkha do not arise. This seems to be consistent with how the second Noble Truth is expressed.

Spiny
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex

You have given me a lot to respond to :)

Rather than saying "However if there is no clinging then there is no mental dukkha, no stress or pain" do you mean "However if there is no clinging then there is no mental dukkha, no mental stress or mental pain pain" ? If it is the latter than I mostly agree. Though Ud 4.5 and MN26 do show that even a Buddha can experience some degree of dukkha, perhaps only due to physical stress (of teaching Dhamma or putting up with unruly monks, nuns and laypeople).
Physical pain is just a sensation, dukkha is what we create around it via aversion. This is based on my own direct observance and what I have been taught by teachers and its also in line with the Four Noble Truths

Dont get stuck on words


Do you know how craving leads to dukkha according to D.O. ?
Why is this relevant?

Whats wrong with birth?
Birth of "I" is dukkha

I wonder how the metaphorical births & deaths of ego identity can be reconciled with the simile above.

Why is birth of "I" metaphorical?


“The heap of bones one person leaves behind With the passing of a single aeon Would form a heap as high as a mountain: Such is said by the Great Sage.
This is declared to be as massive As the tall Vepulla Mountain Standing north of Vulture Peak In the Magadhan mountain range.
SN15.10 (10) Person. Ven BB Trans.


I wonder how the metaphorical births & deaths of ego identity can be reconciled with the simile above.

No reason why this cant be read as an Hyperbole

If there is no rebirth than the path is mostly pointless
This is your argument not mine. Have I said there is no rebirth, or have I just discussed the view itself? Would help if you actually read my posts carefully if we are to have a discussion
Your sutta quote does refute your own position. A well taught noble disciple can feel a painful feeling dukkha vedanā. So this own quote tells us that even ariyasāvako can feel dukkha.

touched by a painful feeling = dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho

The Sutta is quite clear that the practice is to put an end to the second dart and, by extension, physical pain is just that

As for Hell, the Buddha has clearly stated that it was neither metaphor, nor belief on His part.
I have experienced Hell as well, as have you
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Alex

"Having been touched by that painful feeling, he resists (and resents) it. Then in him who so resists (and resents) that painful feeling, an underlying tendency of resistance against that painful feeling comes to underlie (his mind). Under the impact of that painful feeling he then proceeds to enjoy sensual happiness. And why does he do so? An untaught worldling, O monks, does not know of any other escape from painful feelings except the enjoyment of sensual happiness. Then in him who enjoys sensual happiness, an underlying tendency to lust for pleasant feelings comes to underlie (his mind). He does not know, according to facts, the arising and ending of these feelings, nor the gratification, the danger and the escape, connected with these feelings. In him who lacks that knowledge, an underlying tendency to ignorance as to neutral feelings comes to underlie (his mind). When he experiences a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling or a neutral feeling, he feels it as one fettered by it. Such a one, O monks, is called an untaught worldling who is fettered by birth, by old age, by death, by sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair. He is fettered by suffering, this I declare.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



This clearly shows that the aversion is what leads to dukkha in the case when one is touched by physical pain

When one has aversion then this leads to craving, birth of "I" and dukkha


However when one has knowledge of things as they are, one knows that physical pain is just a sensation that has the three marks. Then there is no aversion

Now this is knowledge based contact. When there is knowledge based contact there is no development of a feeling into craving

D.O. stops and dukkha does not come to be


metta :anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex
"On seeing a form with the eye he does not become greedy for pleasant forms, or averse to disagreeable forms. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no becoming; no becoming, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If you abandon the path of liking or averting and instead just experience physical pain as it is then there is no dukkha
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Dec 18, 2010 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex

"There are these three kinds of feeling: a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling, and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. On the occasion when one feels a pleasant feeling, one does not feel either a painful feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a pleasant feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a painful feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a painful feeling. One feels only a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling on that occasion.

"A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

"Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



"And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed cow were to stand leaning against a wall. The creatures living in the wall would chew on it. If it were to stand leaning against a tree, the creatures living in the tree would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to water, the creatures living in the water would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to the air, the creatures living in the air would chew on it. For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same say, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded. When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Spiny O'Norman wrote: To gain wisdom and to be liberated from suffering?
Wisdom is to get liberated from suffering. If there was one life, then one would be liberated from all suffering when death will occur. Meanwhile one could do whatever one wanted, it would all lead to the same goal and any special method would not be necessary as cessation of all suffering (be it due to defilements or other factors as well).
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

CLW,
clw_uk wrote:Alex
"On seeing a form with the eye he does not become greedy for pleasant forms, or averse to disagreeable forms. He abides with mindfulness of the body established and with a immeasurable mind. He knows the deliverance of mind and the deliverance through wisdom as it really is, where unwholesome states cease completely. Having abandoned the path of agreeing and disagreeing, he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant - just as it is. He is not delighted or pleased with those feelings and he does not appropriates them. Interest in those feelings ceases. With the cessation of interest, clinging ceases. With no clinging, there is no becoming; no becoming, no birth; with no birth, there is no old age, sickness or death, no grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure or distress. Thus ceases the complete mass of dukkha.

http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If you abandon the path of liking or averting and instead just experience physical pain as it is then there is no dukkha


In your own post it tells us that a wise person can experience dukkha!
"he experiences whatever feeling that arises - pleasant, unpleasant (dukkhaṃ), or neither unpleasant nor pleasant"
So evaṃ anurodhavirodhavippahīno yaṃ kiñci vedanaṃ vedeti sukhaṃ vā dukkhaṃ vā adukkhamasukhaṃ vā, so taṃ vedanaṃ nābhinandati nābhivadati nājjhosāya tiṭṭhati. Tassa taṃ vedanaṃ anabhinandato anabhivadato anajjhosāya tiṭṭhato yā vedanāsu nandī sā nirujjhati. Tassa nandinirodhā upādānanirodho, upādānanirodhā bhavanirodho, bhavanirodhā jātinirodho, jātinirodhā jarāmaraṇaṃ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā nirujjhanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa nirodho hoti.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.237" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So dukkha can be experienced even by an Aryan. One simply has no mental aversion or liking of it.

Same for your other quote that just supports that Aryans can feel dukkha (just not due defilements which they've eradicated).
"But in the case of a well-taught noble disciple, O monks, when he is touched by a painful feeling (dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho), he will not worry nor grieve and lament, he will not beat his breast and weep, nor will he be distraught. It is one kind of feeling he experiences, a bodily one, but not a mental feeling.
Sutavā ca kho bhikkhave ariyasāvako dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho samāno na socati na kilamati na paridevati na urattāḷiṃ kandati na sammohaṃ āpajjati: so ekaṃ vedanaṃ vediyati kāyikaṃ, na cetasikaṃ.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#pts.207" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Alex123 wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote: To gain wisdom and to be liberated from suffering?
Wisdom is to get liberated from suffering. If there was one life, then one would be liberated from all suffering when death will occur.
But I want to get liberated from suffering now! Or at least in the forseeable future ;)
But seriously, I'm not arguing against the existence of rebirth, I'm just saying I don't know what the future holds - I don't know what will happen next week, let alone in a future lifetime. And presumably nobody else here knows what the future holds, so we're talking about beliefs and assumptions. The question then is presumably about motivation for practice - for some people a positive belief in rebirth is a motivator for the kind of reasons you've mentioned, for other people it isn't relevant to their daily practice.

Spiny
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Spiny O'Norman wrote: But I want to get liberated from suffering now! Or at least in the forseeable future ;)
Even the Buddha did experience unpleasant feelings enough to affect or almost affect his behaviour (MN26, Ud 4.5). The unsatisfactoriness of existence is IMHO so pervasive that dukkha can be attenuated but never 100% destroyed until parinibbāna.

"And if I were to teach the Dhamma and others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me..."As I reflected thus, my mind inclined to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma.'" - MN26


It is my understanding that "to live is to suffer" and that "suffering is inseparable from existence".
Spiny O'Norman wrote: But seriously, I'm not arguing against the existence of rebirth, I'm just saying I don't know what the future holds - I don't know what will happen next week, let alone in a future lifetime. And presumably nobody else here knows what the future holds, so we're talking about beliefs and assumptions. The question then is presumably about motivation for practice - for some people a positive belief in rebirth is a motivator for the kind of reasons you've mentioned, for other people it isn't relevant to their daily practice.
Spiny

Belief in rebirth is not the same as predicting the future. I believe that this body will die. One doesn't need any "prediction" to assume that.


Also, there is a class of individuals called padaparama (text as highest attainment). This type cannot achieve awakening in this life, but only in the future life if they put the most effort in this life. Within "one-life theory" this type of practitioners is doomed not to become awakened or to attain supеr human states of insight and meditative attainments. One could only hope to become awakened even to stream entry only in the next life. So if one believes in one-life-only, one may get discouraged, wrongly believe that Dhamma doesn't work and quit. This would be terrible. But within multiple lives until parinibbāna, these do have a hope.

Bhikkhus, a certain person whether he gains sight of the Thus Gone One or does not gain sight of the Thus Gone One, whether he hears the Teaching and Discipline of the Thus Gone One or does not hear it, he does not enter the right path to become proficient in meritorious thoughts.

AN3.22 Gilānasuttaṃ Ý Sick persons
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ggo-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Something tells me that generally speaking exceptionally good people are rare, I believe in the pyramid, and unfortunately not all have what it takes.



An interesting link about 4 types of individuals
http://www.viet.net/anson/uni/u-37bd/37bd-e00.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Cloud »

from the teachings of Ajahn Chah:
Even the Buddha experienced these things, he experienced comfort and pain, but he recognized them as conditions in nature. He knew how to overcome these ordinary, natural feelings of comfort and pain through understanding their true nature. Because he understood this “natural suffering” those feelings didn’t upset him.
Both joy and sorrow, both pleasure and pain, are dukkha if we have not released the mind from all wrong view. Really these are the same thing (i.e. pleasure and pain); it is only through our delusions of permanence, stability and self that we make distinction and suffer.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Alex123 wrote: It is my understanding that "to live is to suffer" and that "suffering is inseparable from existence".
I think there is support for that idea in the suttas, most obviously that birth, ageing and death are included in descriptions of dukkha - unless one interprets this to mean that it is the mental suffering associated with these events rather than the events themselves.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Alex123 wrote:Why do we need the Buddha if we are guaranteed parinibbāna at death?
Do the suttas actually support this idea of paranibbana as annihilation? I thought that "what happens to a Tathagata at death?" was one of the Buddha's unanswered questions?

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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Cloud wrote:from the teachings of Ajahn Chah:
Even the Buddha experienced these things, he experienced comfort and pain, but he recognized them as conditions in nature. He knew how to overcome these ordinary, natural feelings of comfort and pain through understanding their true nature. Because he understood this “natural suffering” those feelings didn’t upset him.
Both joy and sorrow, both pleasure and pain, are dukkha if we have not released the mind from all wrong view. Really these are the same thing (i.e. pleasure and pain); it is only through our delusions of permanence, stability and self that we make distinction and suffer.

But Cloud, in YOUR OWN post it says that "Even the Buddha experienced these things, he experienced comfort and pain,"

Pain is included into Dukkha.

With metta,

Alex
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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But Cloud, in YOUR OWN post it says that "Even the Buddha experienced these things, he experienced comfort and pain,"

Pain is included into Dukkha.

With metta,

Alex

Pain is a word we have to use when talking conventionally, like self


from my own exp. I can say I am feeling pain for sake of a label and yet not experience dukkha


metta :anjali:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Why do we need the Buddha if we are guaranteed parinibbāna at death?
Do the suttas actually support this idea of paranibbana as annihilation? I thought that "what happens to a Tathagata at death?" was one of the Buddha's unanswered questions?

Spiny

IMHO the suttas say this:

Nibbana is not annihilation of an existing Being. The problem in the question of "what happens to a Tathagata at death?" is the assumption that Tathagata is an existing being that is either survives eternally or is annihilated after death. When one posits a Self, one then can hold such positions as self survives death, or death is the end of the Self, or hold some agnostic position. The problem is the Self-View.

Parinibbana is complete ending of the 5 khandhas without anything remaining. It is not an annihilation because there is no One to be annihilated in the first place.
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