Snp 5.7 Nanda-manava-puccha: Nanda's Questions

[mikenz66]

Snp 5.7 PTS: Sn 1077-1083
Nanda-manava-puccha: Nanda's Questions
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[Nanda:]
There are in the world sages, they say — in what way? Do they call one a sage for possessing knowledge or possessing a way of life?

[The Buddha:]
Not on account of his views, learning, or knowledge do the skilled here, Nanda, call one a sage. Those who live disarmed, undesiring, untroubled: those, I say, are called sages.

[Nanda:]
Whatever priests & contemplatives describe purity in terms of views & learning, describe purity in terms of precepts & practices, describe purity in terms of manifold ways: have they, dear sir, living there in that way, crossed over birth & aging? I ask you, O Blessed One. Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
Whatever priests & contemplatives describe purity in terms of views & learning, describe purity in terms of precepts & practices, describe purity in terms of manifold ways: none of them, living there in that way, I tell you, have crossed over birth & aging.

[Nanda:]
Whatever priests & contemplatives describe purity in terms of views & learning, describe purity in terms of precepts & practices, describe purity in terms of manifold ways: if, sage, as you say, they've not crossed over the flood, then who in the world of beings divine & human has crossed over birth & aging? I ask you, O Blessed One. Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
I don't say that all priests & contemplatives are shrouded in birth & aging. Those here who've abandoned what's seen, heard, & sensed, precepts & practices [1] — all — who've abandoned their manifold ways — again, all — who, comprehending craving, are effluent-free: they are the ones, I tell you, who've crossed over the flood.

[Nanda:]
I relish, Gotama, the Great Seer's words well-expounded, without acquisition. Those here who've abandoned what's seen, heard, & sensed, precepts & practices — all — who've abandoned their manifold ways — again, all — who, comprehending craving, are effluent-free: I, too, say they've crossed over the flood.

Note

1. For a discussion of the abandoning of precepts and practices, see The Mind Like Fire Unbound, Chapters 3 and 4.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-3.html
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-4.html

[mikenz66]

Snp 5.7 Nanda-manava-puccha: The Young Man Nanda's Questions

Anandajoti Bhikkhu
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
Listen at: http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond

There are sages in the world', said venerable Nanda,
that is what people say - how is this so?
Do they say he is a sage because he has knowledge
Or because of the life he leads?

Not by view, tradition, or knowledge,
do the skilful say one is a sage here, Nanda,
whoever lives without company, not troubled,
not yearning, they are sages, I say.

Whoever (among) these ascetics and brahmins, said venerable Nanda,
say that purity is through what is seen or heard,
say that purity is through virtue and practices,
say that purity is through countless (other) ways, [1]
Gracious One, perhaps those living restrained in this way
have crossed over birth and old age, dear Sir?
I ask you, Gracious One, please tell this to me.

[1] The first group refers to auspicious sights and sounds; the second (=sãlabbata), may be good or bad, but are always insufficient in themselves; the third group includes other things short of the destruction of craving.

Whoever (among) these ascetics and brahmins, Nanda, said the Gracious One,
say that purity is through what is seen or heard,
say that purity is through virtue and practices,
say that purity is through countless (other) ways,
although they are living restrained in this way,
they have not crossed over bith and old age, I say.

Whoever (among) these ascetics and brahmins, said venerable Nanda,
say that purity is through what is seen or heard,
say that purity is through virtue and practices,
say that purity is through countless (other) ways,
if you say these sages have not crossed the flood,
then just who in the world of the gods and men
have crossed over birth and old age, dear Sir?
I ask you, Gracious One, please tell this to me.

I do not say that all ascetics and brahmins, Nanda, said the Gracious One,
are enveloped in birth and old age:
whoever here has given up (reliance on) what is seen,
heard, or sensed, and virtue and practices,
and has also given up all the countless (other) ways,
who, by fully knowing craving, are pollutant-free -
I say those men have crossed over the flood.

I greatly rejoice in the great seer's word,
Gotama, well-proclaimed is freedom from clinging!
Whoever here has given up (reliance on) what is seen,
heard, or sensed, and virtue and practices,
and has also given up all the countless (other) ways,
who, by fully knowing craving, are pollutant-free -
I also say they have crossed over the flood.

[cooran]

Hello Mike and all,

What do you think of the translations by H. Saddhatissa below?

7. NANDA’S QUESTIONS

The next of the Brahmin students to speak was Nanda. This is what he asked the Buddha.

1. ‘Many people’, he said, ‘talk of Wise Men who, they say, are living in the world. What dou you think about this? When they call someone ‘’wise’’ are they talking about his knowledge or about the way he lives?’ (1077)

2. ‘To the experts’, said the Master, ‘the word ‘’wise’’ has nothing to do with the way a person sees things, or with what he has been taught, or with what he understand. To me, Nanda, a wise man is one who has disarmed: he lives in seclusion, without the tremble or the hunger of desire.’ (1078)

3. ‘Then, Master’, said Nanda, ‘there is another question I must ask you. All religious teachers and Brahmins have talked about the way to be pure. Some have said that purity comes from world-views and from teachings; some have said it comes from good deeds and religious rituals; others have said it comes from other things. Would you say, Sir, that these men, living in this world who’ve taught these things, have gone beyond birth and ageing (1079)

4. ‘I would say this about religious leaders who teach that views and teachings, or deeds and rituals, or anything else will make you pure; I would say that these men, living in this world, have not gone beyond birth and ageing.’ (1080)

5. ‘But Master’, said Nanda, ‘these men who teach that purity comes from views and teachings, or deeds and rituals and other things, these men are religious leaders, and you say that they are not ocean-crossers. I must ask you another question Sir: Can you, a Wise Man, say who in the world has gone beyond birth and ageing?’ (1081)

6. ‘I do not say that all religious teachers and Brahmins are wrapped in the shroud of birth and ageing’, said the Buddha. ‘There are some who have let go of world-views, of teaching traditions of thoughts. They have let go of religious practices and rituals, they have left all the different forms behind and they have a total understanding of attachments. For them there are no inner poison-drives. There, truly, are the ocean-crossers.’ (1082)

7. ‘How perfect is the Wisdom Master’s explanation of non-attachment!’ said Nanda. ‘It fills me with joy to hear it, and to hear that there are people who have let go of views, of traditions of thoughts; of religious practices and rituals; and of all the different forms. And these people have a total understanding of attachment – they have lost the inner poison-drives! Tese are the people whom I too will call the ocean-crossers!’ (1083)

http://books.google.com/books?id=yD1GX1 ... &q&f=false

with metta
Chris

[mikenz66]

Thanks Chris!

Great to have alternative translations of these difficult verses.


Mike

[mikenz66]

Unfortunately, I can't find any more interesting references to, or comments about, this particular Sutta. Perhaps the interesting parts is the statements about the arhant having abandoning precepts and practises. Any comments?


Mike