Agganna Sutta

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Alex123 »

clw_uk wrote: Its a SCIENTIFIC Theory. Theory does not mean a guess in science, rather it is something that has evidence for it
But it is a a theory not a fact. It is also a theory that cannot be directly observed as it is happening. What happens to animals today, may not be what has happened in the past.

Scientists do not have a time machine or clairvoyance to see if evolution did occur in the way they think it did.

clw_uk wrote: We still have the Theory of gravity or Germ Theory, you going to dismiss these to because they are "just a theory"
Unlike evolution, gravity happens now. One doesn't need time machine or clairvoyance to experience its effects. Alive bacteria now can be seen in powerful microscopes. Scientists cannot see evolution as it happened 4 billions of years ago, or even millions of years ago.

clw_uk wrote: Evolutionary change can be observed
Modern one, over really short periods of times (thousands of years is nothing compared to billions). There is no guarantee that what has happened in the past is what that is happening today. What we see today is what has happened today. Scientists are not clairvoyant to know for sure, and to actually see what has happened over billions of years.
clw_uk wrote: Nope. Fossil evidence as well as the geographic distribution of animals and genetic evidence
INFERENCE. Some bits of information and a lot of theory, in the evolution theory. No direct observation is possible until time machine is invented or until scientists become clairvoyant.
clw_uk wrote: Fossils are only a part of the evidence, as I said there is genetic evidence as well. Also there is direct observation of evolution via natural selection, such as via moths
Evidence is not direct observation of something occurring as it is occurring. It is possible to misinterpret the evidence. Evidence could be incomplete. There could be other factors at work, which the scientists don't know yet.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex

But it is a a theory not a fact. It is also a theory that cannot be directly observed. What happens to animals today, may not be what has happened in the past.
A scientific theory that is supported by facts

Unlike evolution, gravity happens now. One doesn't need time machine or clairvoyance to experience its effects. Alive bacteria now can be seen in powerful microscopes. Scientists cannot see evolution as it happened 4 billions of years ago, or even millions of years ago.

So, we were not there at the time of the Big Bang, can still get a good picture of what happened


An when we view bacteria we see the process of evolution via natural selection (well more viruses)

Modern one, over really short periods of times (thousands of years is nothing compared to billions).

So you admit that Evolution occurs on the micro level, this is progress

Now since evolution on the micro level, such as with the wolves and dogs, can be known what do you think will happen given enough time, say a billion years? Speciation, now we cannot see this true but we do have the evidence for it in terms of genetic comparison and geographic distribution of animals over the planet as well comparison of Homologies. We also have the fossils in corresponding strata of rocks over geological time


This also means that Evolution is falsifiable , it would only take a bunny in the cambrian era to disprove it

INFERENCE. Some bits of information and a lot of theory, in the evolution theory. No direct observation is possible until time machine is invented or until scientists become clairvoyant.
Yet you just admitted that it does occur

Evidence is not direct observation of something occurring as it is occurring. It is possible to misinterpret the evidence.
If you like observation so much then fine, we have observed evolution occur at the micro level. Since we know the vast age of the earth, the genetic relatedness of all life and the geographic distribution of animals across the globe, its pretty strong to say that macro evolution does and has occured


Speciation has also been observed, so im failing to see your argument


On a side note have you ever studied Evolutionary Biology?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Alex123 »

clw_uk wrote:Alex
A scientific theory that is supported by facts
So it IS a theory, and the facts can be incomplete. They can also be faked, as in Piltdown man, and it has occured.

Theory, and the evidence can be incomplete.

clw_uk wrote: So, we were not there at the time of the Big Bang, can still get a good picture of what happened
Only inferentially and as a theory. Buddha on other hands could clairvoyantly see.


clw_uk wrote: An when we view bacteria we see the process of evolution via natural selection (well more viruses)
Process happening TODAY. We don't know all the conditions before. Furthermore evolution happens over millions of years. Which scientist has lived that long to observe it?

clw_uk wrote: So you admit that Evolution occurs on the micro level, this is progress
Change occurs. Where it leads to, who knows. Dhamma doesn't deny change.

clw_uk wrote: Now since evolution on the micro level, such as with the wolves and dogs, can be known what do you think will happen given enough time, say a billion years?
That would be an inference unless one has clairvoyance or has a time machine. The point I am making is that scientists cannot refute what has happened according to the Agganna sutta.

Your original quote from the sutta:
clw_uk wrote: "There comes a time, Vasettha, when, after the lapse of a long, long period, this world died. And when this happens, beings have mostly been reborn into the Realm of Radiance [as devas]; and there they dwell, made of mind, feeding on rapture, self-luminous, traversing the air, continuing in glory; and thus they remain for a long, long period of time. There comes also a time, Vasettha, when sooner or later this world begins to re-evolve. When this happens, beings who had deceased from the World of Radiance usually come to life as humans...now at that time, all had become one world of water, dark, and of darkness that maketh blind. No moon nor sun appeared, no stars were seen, nor constellations, neither was night manifest nor day, neither months nor half-months, neither years nor seasons, neither female nor male. Beings were reckoned just as beings only. And to those beings, Vasettha, sooner or later after a long time, earth with its savours was spread out in the waters, even as a scum forms on the surface of boiled milky rice that is cooling, so did the earth appear."
clw_uk wrote:On a side note have you ever studied Evolutionary Biology?
no.
Last edited by Alex123 on Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
son of dhamma
Posts: 131
Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:09 am
Location: Ponce de Leon Springs, Fl
Contact:

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by son of dhamma »

David N. Snyder wrote: Because the Buddha said to take some Suttas literally and some to take by inference:

Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains a discourse whose meaning needs to be inferred as one whose meaning has already been fully drawn out.”
Inference doesn't mean in a completely non-literal way. I do think that applying it to evolution or modern science, not scientific theory but science involves much inference. The Agganna Sutta is definately an inferred sutta, but that doesn't mean we should infer that it is itself not credidle to be inferred in terms of the real processes. With the Adhibdhamma Pitaka also we have the means to infer about this Agganna Sutta.
Remember that the brahmas do not percieve the light of the sun, they see by their own light which they radiate from their fine-material bodies. When the world finally becomes visible to them, and the darkness clears, and the sun appears, there is the world and the savory nutriment spread on the water. They partake of it and continue to become grosser. Whilst this is happening, the nutriment is developing into mold, fungi, plant-life, and subsequently the degenerating beings are partaking in these things and diversifying, and they develop sex. At last, the beings who've become animals become gross organisms at the bottom of the ecosystem, and consecutively this beings follow up into the humans.
From this inferred interpretation I see that the Buddhadhamma presupposes something like the theory of evolution might take place, but that the real cause of earthly life in terms of cyclic cosmological processes is that beings in higher states are passing away into lower states as their kamma so directs, causing the world to reform from higher to lower planes, and a degeneration into biological beings which is a very long period of time, one of the four divisions of a kappa, the evolution phase. Thus the stable biological ecosystem is formed into the continued evolution phase.

I would advise humbly to look at scientific theory from a strong base in the Dhamma, and to speculate in that manner.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Kenshou »

Alex123 wrote:Buddha on other hands could clairvoyantly see.
How do you know?
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Alex123 »

Kenshou wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Buddha on other hands could clairvoyantly see.
How do you know?
I believe the suttas.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex

So it IS a theory, and the facts can be incomplete. They can also be faked, as in Piltdown man, and it has occured.

Oh not piltdown man please, the fact that this was faked doesnt discredit the powerful evidence



Also the whole point of piltdown man was that the forgery was brought to light and dismissed by scientists


Theory, and the evidence can be incomplete.
Yes otherwise it would be called a truth. This is what science is about, working it out


Only inferentially and as a theory. Buddha on other hands could clairvoyantly see.
I dont know why you bother with him, I have a book called the Bible, tells you all you need to know :roll:


Process happening TODAY. We don't know all the conditions before. Furthermore evolution happens over millions of years. Which scientist has lived that long to observe it?
This is quickly turning into (even more) nonsense


Evolution is the survival of desired characteristics, which come from genes

You cannot have life, at least on earth, without genes since they code for life

Since Genes have been around for billions of years, so has evolution

Change occurs. Where it leads to, who knows. Dhamma doesn't deny change.
Change via natural selection acting upon the genes of an organism

That would be an inference unless one has clairvoyance or has a time machine. The point I am making is that scientists cannot refute what has happened according to the Agganna sutta.

It would requite a fundamental different understanding of what Biology is. It would go against the facts and furthermore, is a theory that cannot be proved at all with not one shred of evidence for it


And yes its an inference but seeing how evolution occurs now its rational to say speciation would occur long ago in the past. This inference is then supported via the evidence of genetics, distribution of animals, Homologies of animals and the fossil record. All consistent with the Scientific theory of evolution via natural selection over time and none of it consistent with the Agganna Sutta, not in a literal reading anyway

I have Dhamma. Evolutionary biology is a load of speculation, with only conventional validity.
I see so you have your "bible" and thats all you need to know. That also gives you arrogance enough to not even understand a subject that you are attacking

Would be as ridiculous as me attacking Quantum Mechanics without actually studying what its about
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Kenshou »

Alex123 wrote:
Kenshou wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Buddha on other hands could clairvoyantly see.
How do you know?
I believe the suttas.
So, you don't know. You weren't there, after all.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote:
Kenshou wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Buddha on other hands could clairvoyantly see.
How do you know?
I believe the suttas.


Are you really this credulous? I take it then you believe that spirits live in trees, or that the world is flat with a big mountain in the middle :rofl: :rofl:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Alex123 »

clw_uk wrote:Oh not piltdown man please, the fact that this was faked doesnt discredit the powerful evidence

Also the whole point of piltdown man was that the forgery was brought to light and dismissed by scientists
How many more piltdown mans may be there? Or how many misinterpreted facts?

clw_uk wrote: Yes otherwise it would be called a truth. This is what science is about, working it out
Scientists are not omniscient and neither are they clairvoyant. Honest mistakes can be made.


clw_uk wrote: Evolution is the survival of desired characteristics, which come from genes
Thats an inference.


Again, all the facts all the fossile remains, are not the same thing as directly seeing the truth. Evolution as it was actually happening cannot be observed unless one has clairvoyant powers. It is all guess based on current understanding of biology, current events, and remains that are *found*. It could be almost like guessing the appearance of an intruder based only on the footprints.
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Alex123 »

clw_uk wrote:Are you really this credulous? I take it then you believe that spirits live in trees, or that the world is flat with a big mountain in the middle :rofl: :rofl:
Well, should one dismiss things said by the Buddha that one doesn't agree with? Should one change the teaching to suit one's beliefs? Do you think that you know better than the Buddha?

Maybe we should call it "CLW_Dhamma" rather than Buddha Dhamma.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex

How many more piltdown mans may be there? Or how many misinterpreted facts?
Micro evolution cannot be misinterpreted and neither can the extreme age of the earth

Hence speciation will occur in future and has done in the past


Support for this evidence? The genetic relatedness of all life. I am genetically related to an apple and a monkey, how can this be unless there is a common ancestor? This is then supported via the fossils, directly where they should be in geological time as well as the distribution of animals all over the world

Scientists are not omniscient and neither are they clairvoyant. Honest mistakes can be made.
Straw Man

Thats an inference.
No it isnt

Some of the genotype is what gives rise to the phenotype (with influence from enviroment as well). Natural selection that selects the best phenotype best suited to survival, hence natural selection selects the best genes

These then naturally pass on their kind to future generations


Again, all the facts all the fossile remains, are not the same thing as directly seeing the truth
Even without fossils there is powerful evidence for it


Evolution as it was actually happening cannot be observed unless one has clairvoyant powers.
It has been observed via artificial selection in dogs and cats and natural selection, for example the peppered moths

We have also seen speciation occur


There really is no other reasonable explanation for where humans came from Alex, indeed where all life came from on earth in all its diversity


Evolution is the only theory that explains this that has evidence supporting it, and strong evidence at that



It is all guess based on current understanding of biology, current events, and remains that are *found*. It could be almost like guessing the appearance of an intruder based only on the footprints.
Its not a guess its what the evidence shows. Also it would not matter if there was no fossils at all, there would still be strong evidence for evolution


You just dont like the facts because it disagrees with what you want reality to be
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Well, should one dismiss things said by the Buddha that one doesn't agree with? Should one change the teaching to suit one's beliefs? Do you think that you know better than the Buddha?
Dont have to dismiss anything if you understand what the Buddha was teaching and the cultural context in which he taught, which you obviously dont


Problem is Alex you have blind faith and just accept everything you see in the texts as it is, bllind silly faith
Maybe we should call it "CLW_Dhamma" rather than Buddha Dhamma.
Oh dont be so childish
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Are you really this credulous? I take it then you believe that spirits live in trees, or that the world is flat with a big mountain in the middle :rofl: :rofl:
Well, should one dismiss things said by the Buddha that one doesn't agree with? Should one change the teaching to suit one's beliefs? Do you think that you know better than the Buddha?

Maybe we should call it "CLW_Dhamma" rather than Buddha Dhamma.


I also repeate the question, do you believe in spirits that live in trees or that the earth is flat with a big mountain in the middle, because that is written in the texts?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Kenshou
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Agganna Sutta

Post by Kenshou »

There is more observable, reproduceable, potentially falsifiable data in support of evolution and natural selection than there is for the Buddha's omniscience. (And weather or not these origin-of-life tales in the suttas should be interpreted as-is like this is another issue that seems to have been swept under the rug)

But of course, faith doesn't need to recognize silly facts like that.
Post Reply