Agganna Sutta

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Alex123 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:39 pm

clw_uk wrote:Are you really this credulous? I take it then you believe that spirits live in trees, or that the world is flat with a big mountain in the middle :rofl: :rofl:


Well, should one dismiss things said by the Buddha that one doesn't agree with? Should one change the teaching to suit one's beliefs? Do you think that you know better than the Buddha?

Maybe we should call it "CLW_Dhamma" rather than Buddha Dhamma.
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:48 pm

Alex


How many more piltdown mans may be there? Or how many misinterpreted facts?


Micro evolution cannot be misinterpreted and neither can the extreme age of the earth

Hence speciation will occur in future and has done in the past


Support for this evidence? The genetic relatedness of all life. I am genetically related to an apple and a monkey, how can this be unless there is a common ancestor? This is then supported via the fossils, directly where they should be in geological time as well as the distribution of animals all over the world


Scientists are not omniscient and neither are they clairvoyant. Honest mistakes can be made.


Straw Man


Thats an inference.


No it isnt

Some of the genotype is what gives rise to the phenotype (with influence from enviroment as well). Natural selection that selects the best phenotype best suited to survival, hence natural selection selects the best genes

These then naturally pass on their kind to future generations



Again, all the facts all the fossile remains, are not the same thing as directly seeing the truth


Even without fossils there is powerful evidence for it



Evolution as it was actually happening cannot be observed unless one has clairvoyant powers.


It has been observed via artificial selection in dogs and cats and natural selection, for example the peppered moths

We have also seen speciation occur


There really is no other reasonable explanation for where humans came from Alex, indeed where all life came from on earth in all its diversity


Evolution is the only theory that explains this that has evidence supporting it, and strong evidence at that




It is all guess based on current understanding of biology, current events, and remains that are *found*. It could be almost like guessing the appearance of an intruder based only on the footprints.


Its not a guess its what the evidence shows. Also it would not matter if there was no fossils at all, there would still be strong evidence for evolution


You just dont like the facts because it disagrees with what you want reality to be
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:49 pm

Well, should one dismiss things said by the Buddha that one doesn't agree with? Should one change the teaching to suit one's beliefs? Do you think that you know better than the Buddha?


Dont have to dismiss anything if you understand what the Buddha was teaching and the cultural context in which he taught, which you obviously dont


Problem is Alex you have blind faith and just accept everything you see in the texts as it is, bllind silly faith

Maybe we should call it "CLW_Dhamma" rather than Buddha Dhamma.


Oh dont be so childish
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby clw_uk » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:53 pm

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Are you really this credulous? I take it then you believe that spirits live in trees, or that the world is flat with a big mountain in the middle :rofl: :rofl:


Well, should one dismiss things said by the Buddha that one doesn't agree with? Should one change the teaching to suit one's beliefs? Do you think that you know better than the Buddha?

Maybe we should call it "CLW_Dhamma" rather than Buddha Dhamma.




I also repeate the question, do you believe in spirits that live in trees or that the earth is flat with a big mountain in the middle, because that is written in the texts?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Kenshou » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:59 pm

There is more observable, reproduceable, potentially falsifiable data in support of evolution and natural selection than there is for the Buddha's omniscience. (And weather or not these origin-of-life tales in the suttas should be interpreted as-is like this is another issue that seems to have been swept under the rug)

But of course, faith doesn't need to recognize silly facts like that.
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:11 pm

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Are you really this credulous? I take it then you believe that spirits live in trees, or that the world is flat with a big mountain in the middle :rofl: :rofl:


Well, should one dismiss things said by the Buddha that one doesn't agree with? Should one change the teaching to suit one's beliefs? Do you think that you know better than the Buddha?


They must not have the basic faith in the Buddhadhamma that you do. I think that for them it consitutes "doubt in the Buddha's teachings", because they think he was meaning something entirely different based on modern scientific theory, and they're inferring on the sutta based on that, rather than inferring based on the entire Pali Canon and the whole of Buddha's teaching. You can only have faith in the Buddhadhamma and expel all doubt of it by putting everything together in one Dhammic context, and not clinging to scientific theories.
They seem to have cultivated some resent for people of faith, even if these people's faith is grounded in the practical experience of the Dhamma, and not the "belief faith" of Christianity and Abrahmic religions.
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Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Kenshou » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:43 pm

son of dhamma wrote:They must not have the basic faith in the Buddhadhamma that you do.

You're right, I'm not willing to swallow everything without question.

I think that for them it consitutes "doubt in the Buddha's teachings"

Doubt in the Buddha's teaching of the path to the cessation of suffering? Not so much. For this I have nothing but respect and a good deal of confidence. Due largely to the fact that it is observable and reproduceable.

because they think he was meaning something entirely different based on modern scientific theory, and they're inferring on the sutta based on that,rather than inferring based on the entire Pali Canon and the whole of Buddha's teaching.
Nope. I simply think that we should not put all of our faith and confidence into every scrap of the Pali Canon without a little thought.

You can only have faith in the Buddhadhamma and expel all doubt of it by putting everything together in one Dhammic context, and not clinging to scientific theories.
In your opinion. The line between buddhadhamma and superfluous stuff is different for everyone. And I don't believe I or clw_uk are clung to scientific theories, rather that they make more sense when you actually take some time to get a little educated about the issues. I am not implying that you or Alex are necessarily uneducated, this is not an ad-hom.

They seem to have cultivated some resent for people of faith, even if these people's faith is grounded in the practical experience of the Dhamma, and not the "belief faith" of Christianity and Abrahmic religions.
Faith grounded in practical experience is fine and dandy.

I don't know how exactly it's possible to prove to yourself that the supposed omniscience of the Buddha and other such rather supernatural sounding things in the Pali Canon are true based on practical experience, however. Unless you or Alex have gained some iddhis, then you don't know these things through experience. Aka, blind faith, as bad as what you call "belief faith".
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:03 pm

I am the last person to prescribe to anything that issues blind faith. Extreme skepticism is the way of the Buddhadhamma. Regardless of what you presume to think, I do not put all of my faith and confidence into every scrap of the Pali Canon without a little thought--and I completely discourage that for everyone. My inference into the Abdhidhamma and Agganna Sutta of the Buddhadhamma is based firstly on my practical experience which comes from practicing the Noble Eightfold path, including meditation, and secondly that I can understand the Abhidhamma by standing on this practical experience, and use that Abhidhamma knowledge to infer about the whole of the Buddhadhamma. I have faith in the Buddhadhamma in that way, and in that way only.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby son of dhamma » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:07 pm

Also, due to my practical experience of the Buddhadhamma, I have seen pettas, asuras, and the devas of Catumaharajika, who are "tree spirits" and who also live in lakes and springs, and I have talked with and interacted with them. This I think means that I know at least of the Pettivisaya, Asurayoni, and Catumaharajika planes from personal experience.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:23 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Evolution theory says it right there, a theory


Its a SCIENTIFIC Theory.
Exactly, which means it is based upon what is measurable and observable and is open to being falsified. Science is doing science, not religion and religion is a poor basis for science.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:25 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Kenshou wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Buddha on other hands could clairvoyantly see.
How do you know?


I believe the suttas.
And if the suttas tell you the world is flat, you would believe that?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:40 pm

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Oh not piltdown man please, the fact that this was faked doesnt discredit the powerful evidence

Also the whole point of piltdown man was that the forgery was brought to light and dismissed by scientists


How many more piltdown mans may be there? Or how many misinterpreted facts?
The thing about science is that it is constantly open to revision, thus Piltdown man is is the trash heap, but religion is not open to revision. Faith, without question, is all too often the basis of religion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:43 pm

son of dhamma wrote:I am the last person to prescribe to anything that issues blind faith. Extreme skepticism is the way of the Buddhadhamma. Regardless of what you presume to think, I do not put all of my faith and confidence into every scrap of the Pali Canon without a little thought--and I completely discourage that for everyone. My inference into the Abdhidhamma and Agganna Sutta of the Buddhadhamma is based firstly on my practical experience which comes from practicing the Noble Eightfold path, including meditation, and secondly that I can understand the Abhidhamma by standing on this practical experience, and use that Abhidhamma knowledge to infer about the whole of the Buddhadhamma. I have faith in the Buddhadhamma in that way, and in that way only.
with metta
When you use the word Abhidhamma, what are you talking about?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Virgo » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:45 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
I believe the suttas.
And if the suttas tell you the world is flat, you would believe that?

Rupa just arises and falls away, born of kamma, temperature, citta, or nutrition. When an element of rupa such as hardness, the earth element arises and falls away extremely quickly there is often conditions for another rupa of hardness to arise again directly afterwards, and then directly again, giving the appearance of permanent hardness. The "world" is simply made rupas like this. The "shape" of it is a concept that is produced by and is an object of citta. The eye sees forms, the ear hears sound, the nose smells scents, the tongue tastes, and the body feels hardness, softness, temperature, etc. The mind construes these things as whole things, developing concepts about these things which hide and cloud the nature of dhammas, causing panna not to understand their nature, not-self nature. Whether it is round or flat has no bearing on understanding the truth-- the truth of what arises at this moment - the truth of how the sense bases, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind operate and misconstrue things, taking things for a 'self' and for a 'whole'.

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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:47 pm

son of dhamma wrote:Also, due to my practical experience of the Buddhadhamma, I have seen pettas, asuras, and the devas of Catumaharajika, who are "tree spirits" and who also live in lakes and springs, and I have talked with and interacted with them. This I think means that I know at least of the Pettivisaya, Asurayoni, and Catumaharajika planes from personal experience.
with metta
But you realize that that is not an objective argument. It might mean that you need to have your medications adjusted or it might mean that you are highly suggestible, open seeing things because you really want to. It could be that what you are seeing are some sort of disembodied beings but there is no reason to assume that they are what you claim they are. The problems with your claim are multiple.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:48 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
I believe the suttas.
And if the suttas tell you the world is flat, you would believe that?

Rupa just arises and falls away, born of kamma, temperature, citta, or nutrition. When an element of rupa such as hardness, the earth element arises and falls away extremely quickly there is often conditions for another rupa of hardness to arise again directly afterwards, and then directly again, giving the appearance of permanent hardness. The "world" is simply made rupas like this. The "shape" of it is a concept that is produced by and is an object of citta. The eye sees forms, the ear hears sound, the nose smells scents, the tongue tastes, and the body feels hardness, softness, temperature, etc. The mind construes these things as whole things, developing concepts about these things which hide and cloud the nature of dhammas, causing panna not to understand their nature, not-self nature. Whether it is round or flat has no bearing on understanding the truth-- the truth of what arises at this moment - the truth of how the sense bases, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind operate and misconstrue things, taking things for a 'self' and for a 'whole'.

Kevin
And?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:53 pm

So, the Aggañña Sutta must be taken as being totally seriously, that there is no humor in it, no dismantling the Brahmanical notions via the use of humor; that never happened in this discourse or any other. Is that what is going on here - a deadly serious discourse describing the world exactly and actually as it is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Virgo » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:53 pm

tiltbillings wrote:And?


And, as I said in my last sentence, " Whether it is round or flat has no bearing on understanding the truth-- the truth of what arises at this moment - the truth of how the sense bases, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind operate and misconstrue things, taking things for a 'self' and for a 'whole'."

As we talk or speculate about the earth being round, or flat, or about the existence of devas, we may be distracted from the phenomena that is occurring now, that is to say, how the "all" is being constructed through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and, mind. This is very important and relevant to Buddhist practice.
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:56 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And?


And, as I said in my last sentence, " Whether it is round or flat has no bearing on understanding the truth-- the truth of what arises at this moment - the truth of how the sense bases, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind operate and misconstrue things, taking things for a 'self' and for a 'whole'."

As we talk or speculate about the earth being round, or flat, or about the existence of devas, we may be distracted from the phenomena that is occurring now, that is to say, how the "all" is being constructed through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and, mind. This is very important and relevant to Buddhist practice.
So, then what purpose is there in the Aggañña Sutta?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Agganna Sutta

Postby Virgo » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:00 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And?


And, as I said in my last sentence, " Whether it is round or flat has no bearing on understanding the truth-- the truth of what arises at this moment - the truth of how the sense bases, the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind operate and misconstrue things, taking things for a 'self' and for a 'whole'."

As we talk or speculate about the earth being round, or flat, or about the existence of devas, we may be distracted from the phenomena that is occurring now, that is to say, how the "all" is being constructed through the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and, mind. This is very important and relevant to Buddhist practice.
So, then what purpose is there in the Aggañña Sutta?

It helps us learn abuot the continuance of life, it seems. This can cause us to have samvega of the round. It can also remind us of Dependent Origination, which goes back to and ties in with the "all" as the Buddha termed it.

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