Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
dhamma_disciple
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Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by dhamma_disciple »

My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?

or is there some mechanism to prevent such...
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Virgo
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by Virgo »

dhamma_disciple wrote:My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?
Yep.

Kevin
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Kim OHara
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by Kim OHara »

It's also possible for a person to win first prize in the lottery in two consecutive weeks, but it's not very likely.
If we can be reborn as any kind of creature in any of thousands of worlds, as we are told, the chance of two closely related people being reborn at similar times and places - and the same species! - must be infinitesimal.
Not worth worrying about, in fact.
:namaste:
Kim
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Virgo
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by Virgo »

Kim O'Hara wrote:It's also possible for a person to win first prize in the lottery in two consecutive weeks, but it's not very likely.
If we can be reborn as any kind of creature in any of thousands of worlds, as we are told, the chance of two closely related people being reborn at similar times and places - and the same species! - must be infinitesimal.
Not worth worrying about, in fact.
:namaste:
Kim
Actually I disagree. There are many cases in the Suttas where people are born into the same households and so on. Sometimes we have very strong kammic connections with people that only play themselves out over a number of lifetimes, as weird as that may sound.

This is where tibetan Buddhists get the idea that the disciple is always born near the guru and so on.

Best,

Kevin
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cooran
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by cooran »

Hello Kevin,

Please link us to these 'many suttas'. This would be interesting. However, it may be that they are in the Jataka Tales - of which, as you know, the Tales themselves are not canonical ... only the verses are.

I only know of the husband and wife mentioned in the sutta who asked the Buddha how they could be born together in the next life.

AN 4.55 Samajivina Sutta: Living in Tune
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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khlawng
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by khlawng »

dhamma_disciple wrote:My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?

or is there some mechanism to prevent such...
I would say acinteyya; incomprehensible, not to be dwelled into, unprofitable. :anjali:
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mikenz66
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Chris,
cooran wrote: ...
Please link us to these 'many suttas'. This would be interesting. However, it may be that they are in the Jataka Tales - of which, as you know, the Tales themselves are not canonical ... only the verses are.
Yes, I don't recall any Suttas which discussed specifics about who was related to whom. Those specifics are found in the Commentaries (such as Bahiya and various associates and their encounters with cows http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 350#p32931)

The following Sutta is relevant to this discussion, but only deals in generalities.
SN 15.14-19 Mata Sutta: Mother
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

"Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
:anjali:
Mike
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cooran
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by cooran »

Thanks Mike! :smile:

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Aloka
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by Aloka »

dhamma_disciple wrote:My friend had recently learnt about rebirth and kamma, and asked a question to which we are both are scratching our heads with...

Could scenarios such as:
our fathers being reborn as our wives,
or our husband being reborn as our mothers,
brother and sister as boyfriend girlfriends or grandma and grandpas...etc
in futures lives occur?

or is there some mechanism to prevent such...
I think this sutta may have already been refered to by khlawng:
AN 4.77 - Acintita Sutta : Unconjecturable

"There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four?

"The Buddha-range of the Buddhas is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"The jhana-range of a person in jhana...

"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma...

"Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it.

"These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them."
dhamma_disciple
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by dhamma_disciple »

wow thanks all,

seems to me that thus far no where was there a denial,
nor was there concrete specifications neither...

indeed...I realise
does seem to be an unprofitable contemplation...
does seem to bring about vexation
does bring about a perturbed mind
does distract from the proper aim...
doesn't seem fruitful to ultimately know either,
indeed indeed...

i shall relay the unconjecturable sutta to my friend as well...

humble thanks
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retrofuturist
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings DD,
dhamma_disciple wrote:indeed...I realise
does seem to be an unprofitable contemplation...
does seem to bring about vexation
does bring about a perturbed mind
does distract from the proper aim...
doesn't seem fruitful to ultimately know either,
indeed indeed...
:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Dhamma_Disciple,
dhamma_disciple wrote: seems to me that thus far no where was there a denial,
nor was there concrete specifications neither...
I thought that:
A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.
was fairly clear, if you take it literally.

:anjali:
Mike
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Annapurna
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by Annapurna »

Ah.....now I'm relieved.

2 members here have frequently accused me of having "Hindu beliefs", but I didn't claim anything but the above... :namaste:

Oh, happy day. :smile:
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mikenz66
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Anna,

Perhaps it depends on how you approach it. The sutta I quoted is not specific: the time of samsara is so enormous that such-and-such must have happened in general terms. There are a whole bunch of related suttas of a similar pattern: the amount of blood that has been spilled, and so on.

The sutta that Aloka quoted warns against speculating about specifics of who was who in particular lives...

The "beginning-less samsara" suttas, I think, are designed to motivate us by putting our problems into some sort of "cosmic" perspective, not to encourage speculation.

:anjali:
Mike
dhamma_disciple
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Re: Can our father be reborn as our wife in a future lives?

Post by dhamma_disciple »

Hi Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Dhamma_Disciple,
dhamma_disciple wrote: seems to me that thus far no where was there a denial,
nor was there concrete specifications neither...
I thought that:
A being who has not been your mother at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.
was fairly clear, if you take it literally.

:anjali:
Mike
I felt your "find" was definitely helpful and very adequate answer for me.
Even though my original question (in my mind) had been quite specific to spouse. so thank you.

What it spoke to me was along the lines of:
Upon having affinity with those in our lives, do not be so surprised if,
they have been a previous mother, father, sibling, relative, etc and possibility spouse...

But maybe I feel to should stop here as the unconjecture sutta jolted me to abandon any further speculation me and my friend had seem to be trapping ourselves in.

Kind Regards,
DD
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