The wholesome conduct of a Buddha and its effects

[Prasadachitta]

Wholesome conduct leads to a greater degree of contentment and joy in the life of one who practices it. This is part of what Buddhism teaches. I think we can all agree that it generally leads to a greater degree of contentment and joy in the lives of others. From an objective point of view the Buddha appears to have acted in a profoundly wholesome way. He appears to have been immensely kind and forgiving to a degree which is nothing short of magical.

Do you feel that what we inherit from the Buddha goes deeper than the oral teaching he left behind?
How do you feel about the effects of the conduct of an enlightened mind as apposed to the wholesome conduct of a mind with limited and afflicted goals?
Does the thought of that a being who is totally liberated from self concern manifesting immensely gracious behavior make you glad?


Metta

Gabriel

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Gabriel,

Do you feel that what we inherit from the Buddha goes deeper than the oral teaching he left behind?

Only to the extent that the teachings point to a "way of being" which although it can be explained via the suttas, cannot be experienced in the teachings themselves. The teachings merely point the way.

How do you feel about the effects of the conduct of an enlightened mind as apposed to the wholesome conduct of a mind with limited and afflicted goals?

I think of it in terms of absence - the absence of any mindstate rooted in greed, aversion or delusion. I'm satisfied with the negation of negatives, and unlike some others, aren't too insistent on framing everything regarding Buddhism in inherently positive terms. Individual created a thread about this at Dhamma Wheel some time back.

Does the thought of that a being who is totally liberated from self concern manifesting immensely gracious behavior make you glad?

Yes... gladness in the potential of enlightenment. To me, that's one of the key aspects of taking refuge in the Sangha.

Metta,
Retro.

[Prasadachitta]

Greetings Gabriel,

Do you feel that what we inherit from the Buddha goes deeper than the oral teaching he left behind?

Only to the extent that the teachings point to a "way of being" which although it can be explained via the suttas, cannot be experienced in the teachings themselves. The teachings merely point the way.

Hi Retro,

Yes I see it this way as well but Im talking about the effects of intention which is totally free of greed hatred and delusion. Given that it is possible to act wholesomely and that these actions lend to happiness in this life and the next, do you feel that similar wholesome actions of one who acts without the slightest hint of affliction lend to happiness to a greater degree. For example if I am generous to another and act for their well being, at that moment there are varying degrees of selfishness associated with that generosity. I feel that the greater the degree to which generous actions are unassociated with selfish notions the greater the action lends to happiness and well being. So, with an enlightened being I have the sense that these effects are inconceivable since all of their actions lack any association with ignorance.

I think of it in terms of absence - the absence of any mindstate rooted in greed, aversion or delusion. I'm satisfied with the negation of negatives, and unlike some others, aren't too insistent on framing everything regarding Buddhism in inherently positive terms. Individual created a thread about this at Dhamma Wheel some time back.

Thats cool Your satisfied with negation of negatives. Im relativly satisfied with that myself but that doesnt mean that Im not also inspired by the positive potential of that negation. Its not something I "insist on" its simply something that frequently comes to mind and brings me energy to practice. I am not sure what you mean by "inherently positive terms".

Metta

Gabriel

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Gabriel,

I am not sure what you mean by "inherently positive terms".

I'm thinking of terms like "infinite compassion", "unlimited lovindkindness", "boundless wisdom" and such which may well be true, but there's nothing in those "inherently positive terms" which inherently negates their opposites... i.e. those positive terms don't necessarily preclude the potential for mindstates afflicted by greed, aversion or delusion.

I feel that the greater the degree to which generous actions are unassociated with selfish notions the greater the action lends to happiness and well being.

I agree entirely. This is what distinguishes Right View with taints, from Right View without taints.

Metta,
Retro.

[Prasadachitta]

Greetings Gabriel,

I am not sure what you mean by "inherently positive terms".

I'm thinking of terms like "infinite compassion", "unlimited lovindkindness", "boundless wisdom" and such which may well be true, but there's nothing in those "inherently positive terms" which inherently negates their opposites... i.e. those positive terms don't necessarily preclude the potential for mindstates afflicted by greed, aversion or delusion.

I suppose infinite compassion and kindness might not preclude the potential for affliction but why not "boundless wisdom"? Im just ruminating but doesnt tradition say that perfect wisdom is how any further affliction is precluded. Besides what Im trying to say is not that these qualities inherently permanently negate their opposites. I am saying that it seems that when the potential for afflicted mindstates has been precluded unlimited mind states appear inherent. This thread is about the effect of this.

Metta

Gabriel

[Peter]

Do you feel that what we inherit from the Buddha goes deeper than the oral teaching he left behind?

In fact, this is how i understand the Triple Gem. The oral teaching is the Dhamma. The Buddha represents the fact that the Dhamma can be taught. The Sangha represents the fact that the Dhamma can be learned. The Buddha didn't just leave us a teaching. He left us a teaching that can have a profound effect on those that learn it. That we can meet these people who have benefited from the teachings, and that we ourselves can benefit from the teachings, is also a wonderful inheritance form the Buddha.

How do you feel about the effects of the conduct of an enlightened mind as apposed to the wholesome conduct of a mind with limited and afflicted goals?

I think this is one of the differences between a sammasambuddha and an arahant - the effects they are capable of having on the world.

[Ngawang Drolma.]

In fact, this is how i understand the Triple Gem. The oral teaching is the Dhamma. The Buddha represents the fact that the Dhamma can be taught. The Sangha represents the fact that the Dhamma can be learned. The Buddha didn't just leave us a teaching. He left us a teaching that can have a profound effect on those that learn it. That we can meet these people who have benefited from the teachings, and that we ourselves can benefit from the teachings, is also a wonderful inheritance form the Buddha.

I am trying to argue this point in another forum Peter, and I'm going to steal this passage if you don't mind.
The argument concerns whether triple gem is necessary, or just refuge in dhamma is necessary.

[Peter]

The argument concerns whether triple gem is necessary, or just refuge in dhamma is necessary.

In my understanding of the Triple Gem, refuge in one IS refuge in all three. Each one is another way of looking at the same thing.

A teacher with no teaching and no students has nothing to say. (B -D -S)
A teaching with no teacher and no students is unknown. (-B D -S)
There can't be students if there is no teacher and no teaching. (-B -D S)

A teacher with a teaching that no one can learn benefits no one. (B D -S)
A teacher and students with no teaching have nothing to say to each other. (B -D S)
With no teacher the students don't know of the teaching. (-B D S)

The triple gem is a way to say "There is this teaching (Dhamma) which has been taught (Buddha) and can be learned (Sangha).

[Ngawang Drolma.]

The argument concerns whether triple gem is necessary, or just refuge in dhamma is necessary.

In my understanding of the Triple Gem, refuge in one IS refuge in all three. Each one is another way of looking at the same thing.

A teacher with no teaching and no students has nothing to say. (B -D -S)
A teaching with no teacher and no students is unknown. (-B D -S)
There can't be students if there is no teacher and no teaching. (-B -D S)

A teacher with a teaching that no one can learn benefits no one. (B D -S)
A teacher and students with no teaching have nothing to say to each other. (B -D S)
With no teacher the students don't know of the teaching. (-B D S)

The triple gem is a way to say "There is this teaching (Dhamma) which has been taught (Buddha) and can be learned (Sangha).

Perfect, thanks!