Where Will a Vajrayana Practitioner Be Reborn?

[Mr. G]

As you all know I'm a Vajrayana practitioner

Can you provide a brief description of what you practice?

metta

Hi Anicca,

Practices from Sakya and Nyingma lineages.

[Mr. G]

Hey all,

I was wondering where a Vajrayana practitioner will be reborn from a Theravadan perspective. From a Theravadan perspective, I'm guessing a bad rebirth for a Vajrayana practitioner would be due to wrong view and practice? Would I be headed towards the Animal realm? Ghost realm? Human realm? As you all know I'm a Vajrayana practitioner, but I've also had some training in the Mahasi Style of vipassana. I am genuniely curious though as to the realm I would be heading to from a Theravadan point of view. I have a ridiculously thick skin, so please be honest and blunt, it's OK.

Why expect other people on an internet forum to speculate about your future, mr gordo ? Just keep practising and be mindful and aware in the here and now !

Hi Aloka,

I'm not really looking for someone to "predict" anything really. I'm more interested in the POV of a Theravadan who views a Vajrayana pracititioner's practice in terms of the result.

[Mr. G]

"So it is with any man who refrains from taking life, from stealing, & from indulging in illicit sex; refrains from lying, from speaking divisive speech, from harsh speech, & from idle chatter; is not greedy, bears no thoughts of ill-will, & holds to right view. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

316-319
Ashamed of what's not shameful, not ashamed of what is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. Seeing danger where there is none, & no danger where there is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. Imagining error where there is none, and seeing no error where there is, beings adopting wrong views go to a bad destination. But knowing error as error, and non-error as non-, beings adopting right views go to a good destination.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-316" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


with metta
Chris

Thank you for these sutta references cooran! Very helpful!

[tiltbillings]

Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.

Rebirth is not a problem. The real question is can a Vajrayanika have genuine insight following the path they have chosen.

[Ceisiwr]

Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.

Rebirth is not a problem. The real question is can a Vajrayanika have genuine insight following the path they have chosen.

I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...

[tiltbillings]

I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...

Then the question how much of the NEP is in the Vajrayana.

[Ceisiwr]

I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...

Then the question how much of the NEP is in the Vajrayana.

I dont know much about the tradition, perhaps the person who started the thread could tell us?

[Mr. G]

Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Theravada, Vajrayana, Mahayana, Dzogchen - - - - just labels.

It has to do with your intentional actions – not what label you apply to yourself.

Rebirth is not a problem. The real question is can a Vajrayanika have genuine insight following the path they have chosen.

Ah, understood, thanks tilt.

[Mr. G]

I suppose that depends on how much the follow the Noble Eightfold Path...

Then the question how much of the NEP is in the Vajrayana.

I dont know much about the tradition, perhaps the person who started the thread could tell us?

Well I think that would be a loaded answer upon my part as I would say Vajrayana contains all of the NEFP. However, others would strongly disagree. I'm not looking to dissect Vajrayana in comparison to Theravada though (there have been other threads for that).

I was really concerned about if rebirth would lead to a lower or higher realm in the eyes of a traditional Thervadan. From the responses given, it seems that even if Vajrayana does not fit the NEFP in accordance to Theravada standards, that it would still lead to higher rebirth? I guess I may have read in the past that having the wrong view would lead to the ghost realm or something to that effect. I forget the sutta for that though.

I think tilt does raise a good point in terms of asking does Vajrayana lead to awakening. I didn't ask this question since I think I already know the Theravadan POV on this.

[Ceisiwr]

I was really concerned about if rebirth would lead to a lower or higher realm in the eyes of a traditional Thervadan. From the responses given, it seems that even if Vajrayana does not fit the NEFP in accordance to Theravada standards, that it would still lead to higher rebirth? I guess I may have read in the past that having the wrong view would lead to the ghost realm or something to that effect. I forget the sutta for that though.

If it is birth in particular realms your concerned with, then it all depends on intention. This applies to anyone, Christian, Atheist or Tibetan Buddhist

Wrong view that leads to an unwholesome state is the adoption of the view of "one life, not results of action, do what thou will". Since Tibetan Buddhist have a view of life after death, results of giving etc then they dont fall into wrong view that lends itself to unwholesome mind states


So a Tibetan Buddhist can have birth in a heavenly state if the intention is wholesome


In terms of liberation, then it depends on if one follows the NEFP

[Anicca]

I guess I may have read in the past that having the wrong view would lead to the ghost realm or something to that effect. I forget the sutta for that though.

MN 57 Kukkuravatika Sutta

Now there are two destinations for one with wrong view, I say: hell or the animal womb.

metta

[tiltbillings]

I think tilt does raise a good point in terms of asking does Vajrayana lead to awakening. I didn't ask this question since I think I already know the Theravadan POV on this.

There is no official Theravadin point of view. There is a sutta where the Buddha states that whatever practice entails the NEFP leads to truth (or some such thing). From my stand point I have no doubt that the Vajrayana has a capacity for producing genuine insight, though may be lot of side trips along the way.

[Aloka]

I think tilt does raise a good point in terms of asking does Vajrayana lead to awakening.

Indeed. My own solution to this conundrum was to change tradition from Vajrayana to Theravada.

[cooran]

Hello all,

These threads may also be of use:

View of Mahayana/Vajrayana
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is conducive to awakening?
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris

[DNS]

"Another person has practiced the making of merit by giving as well as by moral discipline to a
high degree; but he has not undertaken the making of merit by meditation. With the breakup of
the body, after death, he will be reborn among humans in a favorable condition. Or he will be
reborn in the company of the devas of the Four Great Kings."

Anguttara Nikaya 4.241-243

(i.e., anyone can go to heaven)