Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Jechbi
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by Jechbi »

green wrote:You will know that you are NOT practicing correctly if your understanding is decreasing, if the pieces of the puzzle don't fall together.
Conversely, you will know that you are practicing correctly if you see the depth and scope of your misunderstanding more clearly, and if the puzzle pieces themselves fall apart into smaller pieces.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Jechbi
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by Jechbi »

Individual wrote:... saddha is confidence to practice teachings that work, not blind acceptance of contentious propositions.
Individual, I wanted to let you know that I found this concise statement very helpful and clarifying. :anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
DarkDream
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by DarkDream »

I think there have been great answers to this question. Based on my reading of the Pali Canon there is no doubt in my mind that it was composed over a period of time and that different parts of it belong more or less composed in earlier or later periods. One book that attempts to do a stratification of the Pali Canon is Pande's Studies in the Origins of Buddhism.

In the Canon itself, as Gombrich points out in his book, "How Buddhism Began: The Conditioned Genesis of the Early Teachings" there appears to be different voices in the texts that record different debates going on after the death of the Buddha.

Personally, I believe the core teachings were somewhat faithfully perserved (Four Noble Truths, dependent coorigination, three characteristics of existence and so on). However, there is a lot of stuff which snuck in based on marketing initiatives, creating the Buddha into a super man and the scholastic urge for coherence and ontology which I believe led to the developments in karma, rebirth and cosmology that developed threads in Buddhism which catered to blind devotionalism, superstition and blind faith.

Due to all my points and others have made, it is essentially important to read the suttas with a critical eye. I believe we should not accept everything read in the sutta's as the direct word of the Buddha that passed unchanged 2,500 years ago. We must remember it is a human created document that has been passed down for thousands of years. As such, it behooves us to apply our intelligence and common sense to what is said and try to understand the social and intellectual context in which a particular teaching is given.

I believe with a respective but critical capacity to reflect on what is presented we can make informed judgements on the respective merits of particular suttas or passages.

--DarkDream
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DarkDream

I agree with your point that we cant read the Suttas as the definite words of the Buddha himself but the core teachings were preserved


believe we should not accept everything read in the sutta's as the direct word of the Buddha that passed unchanged 2,500 years ago.
It was written down 400 years after Lord Buddhas death (give or take). Therefore it can be confidently said that it changed little if at all after that point and I believe that there is some evidence to suggest that the bulk of the Majjhima, Samyutta and Anguttara Suttas were in realitively the same form as we have them now as early as 250(ish) years after the Buddhas death




Metta
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“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:It was written down 400 years after Lord Buddhas death (give or take). Therefore it can be confidently said that it changed little if at all after that point and I believe that there is some evidence to suggest that the bulk of the Majjhima, Samyutta and Anguttara Suttas were in realitively the same form as we have them now as early as 250(ish) years after the Buddhas death
Why do you privilege writing over a carefully structure process of memorization?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Why do you privilege writing over a carefully structure process of memorization?

I dont, i was just stating that once it was written down its very unlikely to change at all and before that the memorization by the monks at least stretches back to 250 years after the Buddhas death
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cooran
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by cooran »

No no no. It is much easier to alter written words than if there are lots of groups of bhikkhus memorising and chanting the same thing across the country. They gathered together regularly, in the same way they chant the Patimokha nowadays. This was the purpose of the Bhanakas, the recitation groups formed while the Buddha was alive, to safeguard and chant the Teachings. Thus you had the Majjhima Bhanakas and the Digha Banakas etc.

metta
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saltspring
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by saltspring »

No no no. It is easier to doctor the spoken word. Writing parchment can be carbon dated so at least you have an exact date of the text as well as the ink, also technology can easily show if a document has been altered over time or erased. I also find the last words of the Buddha to be highly suspect, they read like a group of monks pushing an agenda. Did he really spend his last few moments discussing sangha minutiae? Having said this I have faith in the Pali canon, I feel the Buddha's intentions and insights rise above later deviations, made by competing factions.
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by Dhammanando »

saltspring wrote:No no no. It is easier to doctor the spoken word. Writing parchment can be carbon dated so at least you have an exact date of the text as well as the ink, also technology can easily show if a document has been altered over time or erased.
Carbon-dating doesn't really have any application here. The life-span of ola leaves in a tropical climate is very short indeed and so manuscripts had to be regularly recopied.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
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mudra
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by mudra »

I think we all agree that faith based on conviction is a powerful thing, and gives a significant boost to our practice. The Buddha obviously didn't urge us investigate his words because he had doubts, but because a certain type of doubt prevents us from truly practicing dhamma as much as any other kilesa. So our investigation's purpose is to give strength to our practice.

For sure faith that the Pali Canon goes back to the Buddha is important to Theravadin practitioners (in fact for Buddhists other than just Theravadins too), but if that faith is not based on strong conviction arising from successful investigation it is sort like a false bravado that could crumble easily if seriously challenged.

In the end the issue is the methodology of the investigation. One needs to develop proper tools - sound concepts and inferences, based on 'perfect' reasons, applicable to the predicate ('goes back to the Buddha') and the subject ('the Pali Canon') of our conclusions. One such touchstone would be consistency - for example using the Four Arya Truths as yardstick - and developing from there. Historical record could be another.

I think just stating "it's a historical fact" by itself is not necessarily satisfactory to give rise to the power of conviction.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by tiltbillings »

saltspring wrote:No no no. It is easier to doctor the spoken word.
Probaly not, given that you would have to convince any number of others to go along with the doctoring. It is far easier for a scribe to doctor or miss copy a text.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
mudra
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by mudra »

tiltbillings wrote:
saltspring wrote:No no no. It is easier to doctor the spoken word.
Probaly not, given that you would have to convince a any number of others to go along with the doctoring. It is far easier for a scribe to doctor or miss copy a text.
tilt,

it's possible to doctor either actually. Plus there is that old "chinese whispers effect" that would definitely would not be pronounced (not pun intended) amongst quality practitioners but could occur elsewhere. As stated above, I think debating only on mere historical accuracy is not enough.

I rather think we need to supplement that with the methodology suggested by your 'signature' (which I have always liked!!!)
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cooran
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by cooran »

Regular recitations by extremely large groups of bhikkhus is not the one-on-one game of Chinese Whispers. I realise that many posting in this thread are not Theravadins, but it is offensive to categorise the regular meetings of the Ariya Sangha of those times, and the Bhikkhu Sangha of today in this way. All traditions accept the Pali Canon - and all Traditions have regular recitations of the Bhikkhu Rules which they accept as coming from the Buddha.

Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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tiltbillings
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by tiltbillings »

mudra wrote:
it's possible to doctor either actually. Plus there is that old "chinese whispers effect" that would definitely would not be pronounced (not pun intended) amongst quality practitioners but could occur elsewhere. As stated above, I think debating only on mere historical accuracy is not enough.

I rather think we need to supplement that with the methodology suggested by your 'signature' (which I have always liked!!!)
I am not going to argue that the Pali Canon is an absolute ipisissima verba of the Buddha. It can be argued that the oral preservation started during the Buddha's lifetime and that it was pretty accurate. I would not argue that was not any manipulation of what we find in the suttas, but the process of oral presentation was done in a way that would make manipulation very difficult. This is not the "chinese whispers effect"; it was groups of monks collectively reciting the same texts. And these were sacred texts, which by that virtue alone would there would be resistance to altering them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
mudra
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Re: Pali Canon - can it be attributed back to the Buddha?

Post by mudra »

tiltbillings wrote:
mudra wrote:
This is not the "chinese whispers effect"; it was groups of monks collectively reciting the same texts. And these were sacred texts, which by that virtue alone would there would be resistance to altering them.

Let's not get into a huff - I never said it was Chinese whispers. I even stated clearly that amongst quality practitioners as these monks and arhants obviously were
that that would be unlikely, "but could occur elsewhere". It was to illustrate that these arguments over whether it was verbatim or not are not sufficient. As far as the written word goes, it is always possible to misspell words etc.

I am trying to make the point that "historical records" are not enough for the serious practitioner. There has to be consistency, integrity, and also it has to be borne out by testing it.

In fact your conviction in the fact that these monks and arhants would have had such reverence that any deviation would be resisted, is an illustration of such reasoning regarding the consistency of these scriptures.

Not all inferences need to be based on direct perception, they just need good reasons.
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