Why teaching fear?

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Hanzze
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Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:23 am

Dear Friends,

I had seen and read that many followers of the Theravada are teaching fear, grasping on fear, praising fear. I don't know a little about Suttas, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of fear?

Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is teaching fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is leading to grasping on fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is praising fear?
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:40 am

In one way there should be teaching of fear. "If you do evil deeds, speak evil words, and think evil thoughts, you will be reborn in the lower realms or in hell." This kind of fear of evil consequences of evil kamma is called ottappa in Pali.

In another way there should be teaching of fear. "If you do evil deeds, speak evil words, and think evil thoughts, you will be censured by the wise and shunned by good people." This kind of fear of evil consequences of evil kamma is called hiri in Pali.

These two wholesome mental states are called “the guardians of the world.”

Shamelessness and Recklessness
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:57 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear Friends,

I had seen and read that many followers of the Theravada are teaching fear, grasping on fear, praising fear. I don't know a little about Suttas, so I like to ask you why is there teaching, grasping and praising of fear?

Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is teaching fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is leading to grasping on fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is praising fear?


Perhaps you would like to share with us the sources of your conclusion that the Theravada teaches fear is grasping on ( sic ) fear and praising fear ?

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby villkorkarma » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:33 pm

Why teaching fear? Its simple to give you a strong motivation so you dont fall down and brake your neck. that was buddhism is. must of people are addicted to fear.
dont hurt anyone in any sort of way

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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:01 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:43 am

Hanzze wrote:Dear Friends,

there are some samples already, those are some samples I had told of. So let me ask one more time, did the Buddha ever taught fear, taught to grasp on fear, praised fear?
And that has not been answered by what has been said above? You might want to reread the above postings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:52 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby khlawng » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:02 am

Hanzze wrote:Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is teaching fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is leading to grasping on fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is praising fear?


Fear comes under the subset of feelings and as feelings is part of the five clinging aggregate, is stressful. So it should neither be grasped or praised. You can read this Sutta for some guidance.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.092.than.html

Fear in itself can also be used to teach the Dhamma and mindfulness. Many Dhutanga monks has written about how they overcame the fear of death and improved their meditation techniques by residing and meditating in forest, isolated places and cemeteries. Here is a sutta that talks about this

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.004.than.html

Hope that helps.

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby ground » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:20 am

Hanzze wrote:So from your opinion Buddha used fear, taught in using fear, told his disciples to use fear, taught to hold on fear to go further, praised fear as a tool to reach the other shore?


You keep on ignoring what has been replied so far. So see what the Buddha has taught:

The Heavenly Messengers

Kind regards

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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:42 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby ground » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:56 am

Hanzze wrote:Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is teaching fear?

It is taught that you should have fear if not acting and being motivated appropriately.

Hanzze wrote:Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is leading to grasping on fear?

No dharma is leading to grasping at anything at all.

Hanzze wrote:there any Buddha Dhamma that is praising fear?

There is praise of acting and being motivated appropriately.

Hanzze wrote:When there is Dhamma taught, which cause fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?

It should cause fear in whom is not acting and motivated appropriately.

Hanzze wrote:When there is Dhamma taught, which leads to grasp on fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?

No dharma is leading to grasping at anything at all.

Hanzze wrote:When there is Dhamma taught, which praises fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?

There is praise of acting and being motivated appropriately.

Kind regards

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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:09 am

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:18 am

Hanzze wrote:Thanks for coming up with your avatar tiltbillings,

So from your opinion Buddha used fear, taught in using fear, told his disciples to use fear, taught to hold on fear to go further, praised fear as a tool to reach the other shore?
we do bad things? If not, why? The Buddha asked us to be realistic about the nature of the world (pun intended) we live in. I do not think that necessitates a quacking, shivering fear. As we practice the insight of that practice leads to an equnimity, but before that some degree of fear may be of value:


AN 6.20 PTS: A iii 306
Maranassati Sutta: Mindfulness of Death (2)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2011

I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying at Nadika, in the Brick Hall. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, mindfulness of death — when developed & pursued — is of great fruit & great benefit. It gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its final end. And how is mindfulness of death developed & pursued so that it is of great fruit & great benefit, gains a footing in the Deathless, and has the Deathless as its final end?

"There is the case where a monk, as day departs and night returns, reflects: 'Many are the [possible] causes of my death. A snake might bite me, a scorpion might sting me, a centipede might bite me. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me. Stumbling, I might fall; my food, digested, might trouble me; my bile might be provoked, my phlegm... piercing wind forces [in the body] might be provoked. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me.' Then the monk should investigate: 'Are there any evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by me that would be an obstruction for me were I to die in the night?' If, on reflecting, he realizes that there are evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die in the night, then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. But if, on reflecting, he realizes that there are no evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die in the night, then for that very reason he should dwell in joy & rapture, training himself day & night in skillful qualities.

"Further, there is the case where a monk, as night departs and day returns, reflects: 'Many are the [possible] causes of my death. A snake might bite me, a scorpion might sting me, a centipede might bite me. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me. Stumbling, I might fall; my food, digested, might trouble me; my bile might be provoked, my phlegm... piercing wind forces [in the body] might be provoked. That would be how my death would come about. That would be an obstruction for me.' Then the monk should investigate: 'Are there any evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by me that would be an obstruction for me were I to die during the day?' If, on reflecting, he realizes that there are evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die during the day, then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. But if, on reflecting, he realizes that there are no evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die during the day, then for that very reason he should dwell in joy & rapture, training himself day & night in skillful qualities.

"This, monks, is how mindfulness of death is developed & pursued so that it is of great fruit & great benefit, gains a footing in the Deathless, and has the Deathless as its final end."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:53 am

May all become auspicious.
The perfection of prayer without hopes or fear,
whatever auspiciousness there is of great prayer,
let that auspiciousness appear here now.


I took some words of "Trungpa Rinpoche (from Illusion's Game)" and changed just the word (hope) into fear

"Creating this kind of fear (hope) is one of the most prominent features of spiritual materialism.…There are so many memories (promises) involved. So much fear (hope) is planted in your heart. This is playing on your weakness. It creates further confusion with regard to pain. You come into (forget about) the pain altogether and get involved in seeing (looking for) something other than the destroying pain (pain). And that itself is pain.…That is what we will go through unless we understand that the basic requirement for treading the spiritual path is fearlessness (hopelessness)."
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:57 am

Hanzze wrote:. . . .
I have not a clue as to what your point is.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:01 am

In changing Trungpa Rinpoches words you have completely distorted what he was saying. Or rather you have put words into his mouth that he didnt intend about a subject he was not addressing.

Your OP made specific claims. You have been asked to substantiate those claims and your only attempt to do so is a spurious and basically dishonest distortion of a passage dealing with another issue entirely.

So with no hope of any appropriate response I ask you once more to give sources for your view that the Theravada teaches and praises fear.

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:02 am

PeterB wrote:In changing Trungpa Rinpoches words you have completely distorted what he was saying. Or rather you have put words into his mouth that he didnt intend about a subject he was not addressing.

Your OP made specific claims. You have been asked to substantiate those claims and your only attempt to do so is a spurious and basically dishonest distortion of a passage dealing with another issue entirely.

So with no hope of any appropriate response I ask you once more to give sources for your view that the Theravada teaches and praises fear.
What does he even mean by "fear?"
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:15 am

I dont know Tilt...but I suspect he ( Hanzze ) doesnt mean "hope"..

I was Trungpa Rinpoches student for more than twenty years. The thought of his likely reaction to his words being bowdlerised in that way is...interesting... :?

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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:34 am

PeterB wrote:I dont know Tilt...but I suspect he ( Hanzze ) doesnt mean "hope"..

I was Trungpa Rinpoches student for more than twenty years. The thought of his likely reaction to his words being bowdlerised in that way is...interesting... :?
I think there is a bit of fluffy-bunny-ness going with Hanzee's concern over fear. Let us see if he can distinguish between a healthy fear and an unhealthy fear.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:31 am

Thanissaro Bhikkhu: Freedom From Fear
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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