Why teaching fear?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
PeterB
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by PeterB »

In changing Trungpa Rinpoches words you have completely distorted what he was saying. Or rather you have put words into his mouth that he didnt intend about a subject he was not addressing.

Your OP made specific claims. You have been asked to substantiate those claims and your only attempt to do so is a spurious and basically dishonest distortion of a passage dealing with another issue entirely.

So with no hope of any appropriate response I ask you once more to give sources for your view that the Theravada teaches and praises fear.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:In changing Trungpa Rinpoches words you have completely distorted what he was saying. Or rather you have put words into his mouth that he didnt intend about a subject he was not addressing.

Your OP made specific claims. You have been asked to substantiate those claims and your only attempt to do so is a spurious and basically dishonest distortion of a passage dealing with another issue entirely.

So with no hope of any appropriate response I ask you once more to give sources for your view that the Theravada teaches and praises fear.
What does he even mean by "fear?"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by PeterB »

I dont know Tilt...but I suspect he ( Hanzze ) doesnt mean "hope"..

I was Trungpa Rinpoches student for more than twenty years. The thought of his likely reaction to his words being bowdlerised in that way is...interesting... :?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:I dont know Tilt...but I suspect he ( Hanzze ) doesnt mean "hope"..

I was Trungpa Rinpoches student for more than twenty years. The thought of his likely reaction to his words being bowdlerised in that way is...interesting... :?
I think there is a bit of fluffy-bunny-ness going with Hanzee's concern over fear. Let us see if he can distinguish between a healthy fear and an unhealthy fear.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by Hanzze »

Thanissaro Bhikkhu: Freedom From Fear
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:. . .
I have no idea as to what you are talking about and I wonder if you do, either.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
PeterB
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by PeterB »

Hanzze wrote:Dear tiltbillings,

when it produces neither fear nor hope it has done its cause.
When it has lead somebody to thinks about the origin of (wrong) fear it might be kusala.
When it has lead somebody to think about the danger of making somebody (wrong) fear it might be kusala.
When it has lead somebody that wrong fear has nothing to do with moral fear (ottappa) it might be kusala.

Walking on the Eightfould path requires no fear, its a way walkable without any fear.

Don't fear to walk on even your some wrong shame is present.

Fearless to resist Hope. Hopeless to resist Fear.

May it put an end on "Look. We don't believe (we don't have faith). We fear."


_/\_
with loving kindness and joy
Hanzze you still have not addressed the points raised by your OP. You stated that the Theravada supports fear. " Praises " fear. You were then asked to give a source for your belief that this is so, that the Theravada "praises" fear.
You then posted a quotation from a Tibetan Lama who was not in the passage quoted referring to fear at all.
You have then merely continued to repeat ad nauseum your contention that the Theravada is in favour of fear and telling us why we shouldnt be in favour of fear.
I know NO Theravadin teacher who sees fear as something favourable per se.
It would help if instead of simply repeating the same mantram you would point to the source of your idea that the Theravada thinks that fear is a good thing.
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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by Hanzze »

You are right, I had posted a quote of an Tibetan Lama, and also that and where I changed it for its use. The origin of coming in touch with it you may see here: Why teaching hope? (on Dharma wheel)
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
PeterB
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by PeterB »

OP is actually Original Post. The post that begins a thread.
And still you have not answered my question.
Why do you think that the Theravada advocates fear per se.
On what is this opinion based.

But dont answer on my account. I have given up on expecting a reply.
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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
Hoo
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by Hoo »

Hanzze wrote:
I guess Thanissaro Bhikkhu did wrote the meaning very well in this words: Freedom From Fear For what it's worth, I think Thanissaro hit the nail on th head. the Dhamma is about freedom from fear. How does this not answer your questions on what did the Buddha teach?
Dear PeterB, those word from Trungpa Rinpoche I read some days ago, and I was very happy to see this explaining in such clear words, which I think are useful for the understanding of people today. They are so clear, that they are also useful to explain the opposite of hope, so I changed its meaning from the problem hope to the problem fear, as there is no different between. One is more linked to the future and the other is more linked to the history. As it is the same with love and hate.
[Theravada in its origin countries is taught with a lot of fear. As religion is mostly taught...
Well first, I doubt that Hanzee was taught Theravada in its origin counties, so why does he proclaim himself knowledgeable about it? I grew up with religious teaching that was based on fear and find Buddhism remarkably freeing. So all I have is Hanzee's assertion that Theravada teaches fear, and I don't find that in my study and practice. So far, it looks like Hanzee teaches fear and Theravada teaches the Dhamma, freedom from fear and suffering, the end of suffering. ;)

NO disrespect intended, Hanzee, but the issue seems to be evoving into one of who/when does one trust. You seem to present a viewpoint that has gotten several answers. Which do you trust and which do you not/and why? Have your original questions ben answered, or is there still an issueto address?

Hoo
Last edited by Hoo on Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Annapurna
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by Annapurna »

Hanzze wrote:Dear Friends,

I don't think that it is clear for all and there are still contradiction.
So let me ask one more time.

Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is teaching fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is leading to grasping on fear?
Is there any Buddha Dhamma that is praising fear?

Let me ask also in other words:

When there is Dhamma taught, which cause fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?
When there is Dhamma taught, which leads to grasp on fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?
When there is Dhamma taught, which praises fear, can it be called Buddha Dhamma?
Hello Hanzze,

The Venerable Pesala already explained, in which context fear is wholesome in Buddhism.

Herewith, your question should be sufficiently answered.

The Dhamma needs to be grasped in context, and not isolated.

Explaining wholesome fear is not tantamount to teaching or praising it.

If you feel Theravada does teach fear, or the Buddha, for that matter, can you share which teachings created this impression in you?

Could it be that some Buddhist teachings cause you, personally, fear and would you like to share, which? So that perhaps we can talk about that and help?

:anjali:
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by tiltbillings »

Hanzze wrote:. . .
Still haven't a clue as to what you are on about, but there have been excellent answers to your OP, which you don't seem to quite get. No further point for me here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Hanzze
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Re: Why teaching fear?

Post by Hanzze »

_/\_
Last edited by Hanzze on Mon Jan 17, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_
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