Noble Conversation

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Will
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Noble Conversation

Postby Will » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:42 pm

A subject worthy of pondering, practicing and applying to our postings here. These ten are aimed at monks and serious meditators, so it is an ideal for most of us.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... ation.html

From the Vaca Sutta:

Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of goodwill.

A statement endowed with these five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people.


From the Vipaka Sutta:

Telling falsehoods — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from telling falsehoods is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to being falsely accused.

Divisive tale-bearing — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from divisive tale-bearing is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to the breaking of one's friendships.

Harsh speech — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from harsh speech is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to unappealing sounds.

Frivolous chattering — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from frivolous chattering is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to words that aren't worth taking to heart.


An anthology on Right Speech: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta

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Will
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Re: Noble Conversation

Postby Will » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:32 am

Quarrelsome debate - how to and how not to do it - from SN 22.3

"And how does one engage with people in quarrelsome debate? There is the case where a certain person is a fomenter of this kind of debate:

'You understand this doctrine & discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine & discipline. How could you understand this doctrine & discipline?
You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly.
What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first.
I'm being consistent. You're not.
What you took so long to think out has been refuted.
Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated.
Go and try to salvage your doctrine, or extricate yourself if you can!'

This is how one engages with people in quarrelsome debate.

"And how does one not engage with people in quarrelsome debate? There is the case where a certain person is not a fomenter of this kind of debate:

'You understand this doctrine & discipline? I'm the one who understands this doctrine & discipline. How could you understand this doctrine & discipline?
You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly.
What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first.
I'm being consistent. You're not.
What you took so long to think out has been refuted.
Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated.
Go and try to salvage your doctrine, or extricate yourself if you can!'

This is how one does not engage with people in quarrelsome debate.
Last edited by Will on Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta

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retrofuturist
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Re: Noble Conversation

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:36 am

Greetings,

The criteria for deciding what is worth saying

[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

From MN 58 - Abhaya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"When we transcend one level of truth, the new level becomes what is true for us. The previous one is now false. What one experiences may not be what is experienced by the world in general, but that may well be truer. (Ven. Nanananda)

“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

Never again...

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stuka
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Re: Noble Conversation

Postby stuka » Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:02 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

The criteria for deciding what is worth saying

[1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them.

[3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them.

[4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them.

[6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings."

From MN 58 - Abhaya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Metta,
Retro. :)



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