Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

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Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby cooran » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:03 am

Hello all,

This is a thread in which to discuss The Pali Primer chapters authored by Lily de Silva, M.A., Ph.D.

Those interested are welcome to join in at any time.

The book is on-line here:
http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/ ... index.html

Be sure to download relevant fonts.

It is anticipated we will be studying/discussing one chapter each week.

metta
Chris
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Ben » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:15 am

Thanks Chris
I'll get onto it.
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Jechbi » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:31 am

Help! I have Windows Vista and I'm not so good with these new-fangled computer thingies. How do I download the fonts? The directions provided on the site don't work for me. :thanks:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby cooran » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:50 am

Hello Jechbi, all,

Our Bhikkhus may be able to help us.
I notice that Bhikkhu Pesala has this link in his signature:
http://www.aimwell.org/Fonts/fonts.html

Have a look....

metta
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---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Ben » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:35 am

Yes, I have vista too. We'll have to investigate how to install new fonts on this system and post the instructions here.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:48 am

As the vri fonts don't work well for Macintosh users I thought it would be best to download the study files, convert them to rtf files with unicode formatting and then e-mail them to anyone interested. I'll do the work this evening, so pm me with your e-mail address for a copy of the files.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Ben » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:51 am

For Jechbi and anyone else on non-Macs and running vista:

To install a font
Click to open Fonts.

Click File, and then click Install New Font.

If you don’t see the File menu, press ALT.

In the Add Fonts dialog box, under Drives, click the drive where the font that you want to install is located.

Under Folders, double-click the folder containing the fonts that you want to add.

Under List of fonts, click the font that you want to add, and then click Install.


EDIT: And it works!
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby pt1 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:30 am

Hi all,

If anyone's having difficulties with online version, I found a downloadable pdf version here. It also has a vocabulary with added burmese and khmer scripts, if there's anyone here from those parts of the world.

The only difference I've noticed so far is that it uses Unicode, so 2 romanised letters are written differently:
-"n with a dot above it" in VRI version becomes "n with left leg curved" in the pdf
-"m with a dot" in VRI becomes "n with the right leg curved".
:smile: I hope this is making sense.

Also, on that website, there are also two other Pali manuals in pdf (by Narada and Duroiselle), aslo upgraded with extra scripts, as well as a lot of info on pali in different countries which might be interesting to experts here.

Best wishes
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby pt1 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:38 am

Also, I think Velthius Scheme might be useful since we'll be typing a lot without diacritics.

Image

And the explanation from BPS:

This scheme was originally developed in 1991 by Frans Velthuis for use with his "devnag" Devanagari font, designed for the TEX typesetting system (see http://www.ctan.org). Pali and Sanskrit scholars have since adopted it as a standard technique in Internet correspondence (see, for example, the » Pali Text Society and the Journal of Buddhist Ethics). In the Velthuis scheme two basic rules are observed:

• Double the vowels, punctuate the consonants
• Long vowels (those usually typeset with a macron (bar) above them) are doubled: aa ii uu

• For consonants, the diacritic mark precedes the letter it affects. Thus, the retroflex (cerebral) consonants (usually typeset with a dot underneath) are with a dot before: .t .th .d .dh .n .l .s .h. The pure nasal (niggahiita) m, also typeset with a dot underneath, is .m. The guttural nasal (n with a dot above) is represented as "n . The palatal nasal (n with a tilde) is ~n. The Sanskrit palatal s (s with an acute) is "s
Of the plain-ASCII methods, this one is the most precise, as it carefully preserves the significance of each special character. To the uninitiated, however, the sight of all those doubled vowels and misplaced periods is utterly bewildering, perhaps leaving them to wonder if someone's keyboard is broken.
Examples

paa.naatipaataa verama.nii sikkhaa-pada.m samaadiyaami

itihida.m aayasmato ko.n.daññassa, añña-ko.n.dañño tveva naama.m, ahosiiti
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby pt1 » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:20 am

Hi, regarding pronunciation, this online dictionary has details for each letter on the title page.

I just realized I've been pronouncing citta and cetasika wrong all these years - it should be pronounced chitta and chetasika :jumping:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Dhammanando » Wed Mar 11, 2009 5:58 am

Greetings,

As Dhamma Wheel's settings have just been tweaked to permit the uploading of zip and rtf files I am uploading a file containing the html pages of de Silva's Primer, converted to Unicode. Should you find the diacritics not displaying correctly on your browser, go to VIEW in your browser menu, select CHARACTER ENCODING, and then select Unicode-8.

DeSilva.zip
(103.96 KiB) Downloaded 177 times


Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Ben » Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:13 am

Thank you Ajahn!
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Heraclitus


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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:16 pm

So what is the plan?
I translated sentences from the lesson one.
And? Lesson two?
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby cooran » Fri Mar 13, 2009 8:52 pm

Hello Branko, all,

Good question. In the previous thread about Studying Pali, the discussion ended with the decision to study this book, and pt1's last post there:
pt1 wrote:Hi Chris,

That sounds good - Pronunciation chapter this week, Lesson 1 on Sunday.

Was wondering, perhaps we should start a dedicated thread for Pali Primer only, because later on we might go on to another book, so it'll be easier to track the topic for us and others later?

Best wishes


How about this? I'll put up the correct answers on a Sunday evening (Oz time), and anyone not understanding or even disagreeing can post - hopefully Ajahn and others well-versed in Pali can adjudicate. Then we can take the a week to learn the next chapter's rules and vocabulary, do the homework and go round again ... what does everyone (including Ajahn) think of that plan?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Mar 13, 2009 10:45 pm

Hi Chris,

Chris wrote:what does everyone (including Ajahn) think of that plan?


It sounds fine to me.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby cooran » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:44 pm

Hello Bhante, all,

=========================
Paali Primer
Exercise 1


Translate into English
1. Bhuupaalo bhu~njati.
king / eats
The king eats.

2. Puttaa sayanti.
sons / sleep
Sons sleep.

3. Vaa.nijaa sayanti.
merchants / sleep
Merchants sleep.

4. Buddho passati.
Buddha / sees
The Buddha sees.

5. Kumaaro dhaavati.
boy / runs
The boy runs.

6. Maatulo kasati.
uncle / ploughs
The uncle ploughs.

7. Braahma.naa bhaasanti.
brahmins / speak
Brahmins speak.

8. Mittaa gacchanti.
friends / go
Friends go.

9. Kassakaa pacanti.
farmers / cook
Farmers cook.

10. Manusso chindati.
man / cuts
The man cuts.

11. Purisaa dhaavanti.
men / run
Men run.

12. Sahaayako bhu~njati.
friend / eats
The friend eats.

13. Tathaagato bhaasati.
Buddha / speaks
The Buddha speaks.

14. Naro pacati.
man / cooks
The man cooks.

15. Sahaayaa kasanti.
friends / plough
Friends plough.

16. Sugato aagacchati.
Buddha / comes
The Buddha comes.

Translate into Paali
1. Sons run.
puttaa / dhaavanti
Puttaa dhaavanti.

2. The uncle sees.
maatulo / passati
Maatulo passati.

3. The Buddha comes.
Buddho / aagacchati
Buddho aagacchati.

4. Boys eat.
kumaaraa / bhu~njanti
Kumaaraa bhu~njanti.

5. Merchants go.
vaa.nijaa / gacchanti
Vaa.nijaa gacchanti.

6. The man sleeps.
manusso / sayati
Manusso sayati.

7. Kings go.
bhuupaalaa / gacchanti
Bhuupaalaa gacchanti.

8. The brahmin cuts.
braahma.no / chindati
Braahma.no chindati.

9. Friends speak.
mittaa / bhaasanti
Mittaa bhaasanti.

10. The farmer ploughs.
kassako / kasati
Kassako kasati.

11. The merchant comes.
vaa.nijo / aagacchati
Vaa.nijo aagacchati.

12. Sons cut.
puttaa / chindanti
Puttaa chindanti.

13. Uncles speak.
maatulaa / bhaasanti
Maatulaa bhaasanti.

14. The boy runs.
kumaaro / dhaavati
Kumaaro dhaavati.

15. The friend speaks.
sahaayo / bhaasati
- Sahaayo bhaasati.
- Mitto bhaasati.

16. The Buddha sees.
Buddho / passati
Buddho passati.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes:

1. bhuupaala: king, lit. protector of the earth - a word rarely used in the texts. Other words for king include raaja (Narada Lesson 17, Warder p.153) and bhuupati (Lesson 25).

2. Here is a list of words related to bhaasati.
bhaasati - to speak;
1. akkosati - to scold, swear at, abuse, revile;
2. ajjhesati - to request, ask, bid;
3. atidisati - to give further explanation, to explain in detail;
4. adhibhaasati - to address, to speak to;
5. anukassati - to draw after, to repeat, recite, quote;
6. anudisati - to point out, direct, bid, address;
7. anubhaasati - to speak after, to repeat;
8. anusaasati - to advise, admonish, instruct in or give advice upon;
9. anuhasati - to laugh at, to ridicule;
10. anvaadisati - to advise, dedicate, assign;
11. apadisati - to call to witness, to refer to, to quote;
12. abhisa.msati - to execrate, revile, lay a curse on;
13. abhisi.msati - to utter a solemn wish;
14. avahasati - to laugh at, deride, mock;
15. aadisati - to announce, tell, point out, refer to; to dedicate;
16. ukka.msati - to exalt, praise;
17. ukkaasati - to "ahem"!, to cough, to clear one's throat;
18. uddisati - to propose, point out, appoint, allot;
19. upakkosati - to scold, reprove, blame;
20. upadisati - to point out, show, advise, specify;
21. uuhasati - to laugh at, deride, mock;
22. obhaasati - to speak to, to rail at, offend, abuse;
23. ghasati - to eat;
24. ~nasati - to bite (of snakes, scorpions);
25. namassati - to pay honour to, to venerate, honour, do homage to;
26. pakkosati - to call, summon;
27. paccakkosati - to curse in return;
28. paccanubhaasati - to speak out or mention correspondingly, to
enumerate;
29. paccaabhaasati - to retort, recite, explain, relate;
30. paccaasati - to ask, beg, pray;
31. paccaasi.msati - to expect, wait for, desire, hope for, ask;
32. pa.tikkosati - to blame, reject, revile, scorn;
33. pa.tipasa.msati - to praise back or in return;
34. pa.tibhaasati - to address in return or in reply;
35. pa.tirosati - to annoy in return, to tease back;
36. pabhaasati - to tell, declare, talk;
37. paribhaasati - to abuse, scold, revile, censure, deiame;
38. parihasati - to laugh at, mock, deride;
39. pasa.msati - to speak out, praise, commend, agree;
40. pasasati - to teach, instruct;
41. pahasati - to laugh, giggle;
42. pahassati - to laugh, be joyful or cheerful;
43. bhasati - to bark;
44. sa.msati - to proclaim, point out;
45. sa.mhasati - to laugh with;
46. samaubhaasati - to converse or study together;
47. samaadisati - to indicate, to command;
48. samukka.msati - to extol, to praise;
49. si.msati - to neigh;
50. hasati & hassati - to laugh, to be merry; to neigh (of horses);
51. hesati - to neigh.

3. According to PED, the three words sahaaya/sahaayaka/mitta all mean 'friend'. sahaaya/sahaayaka in some passages may also mean companion or ally.
==================================================

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat Mar 14, 2009 9:14 pm

Chris wrote:Hello Bhante, all,

=========================
Paali Primer
Exercise 1


That a great course. I have started that course, but if I leave it for a while, find that I have to re-do it since learning any language needs lots of repetition.
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby cooran » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:45 am

Hello all,

How did everyone go with the exercises for chapter 1? Are you learning the vocabulary off by heart? Personally, I think this is the best way - later, if you are reading a Pali text, you want to be able to get most of the thrust of the text without poring over dictionary etc. If you are doing this, how are you going and what methods are you finding best to memorise with?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby Branko » Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:26 pm

My ability to memorize is not really strong, therefore I do not insist on learning words by heart. After translating the exercises, read them once again and a few words stayed in my head. I'm not that much concerned with possibility of intensive browsing through the dictionary later, since with their electronic versions it is not so slow. And I hope as I'm working more with the Pali text, frequent words will gradually stick to my mind. Therefore, let's just proceed without too much pressure.

Metta
:smile:
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Re: Pali Primer Study Group (Lily de Silva)

Postby pt1 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:38 am

Thanks for posting the answers and the additional vocabulary Chris. I agree with Branko, my memory is not that strong and only on the second time around did a few words stick. I remember we were thought in elementary school that the key is repetition - i think it was something like - repeat after the lesson, the next day, the next week, the next month, and then it will hopefully stick, so I'll try with that approach.

One thing I keep forgetting is to take the diacritics into account - especially the long ones - like aa, uu, etc. my brain just filters out the diacritics in a similar way that it filters out banners :smile:
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