World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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son of dhamma
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by son of dhamma »

tiltbillings wrote:Maybe you are not so well read. Try the Visuddhimagga XIII, 31 (pgs 455-6 in Nanamoli's translation).
Maybe I said that I wasn't well-read in the Theravada commentaries. Visuddhimagga isn't a commentary?
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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tiltbillings
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by tiltbillings »

son of dhamma wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Maybe you are not so well read. Try the Visuddhimagga XIII, 31 (pgs 455-6 in Nanamoli's translation).
Maybe I said that I wasn't well-read in the Theravada commentaries. Visuddhimagga isn't a commentary?
It is a - if not the - doctrinal compendium of the Theravada.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by PeterB »

Son Of Dhamma if you really want to live up to your epithet I suggest that you curb your ambition and spend the time learning Vipassana instead.
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son of dhamma
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by son of dhamma »

Paññāsikhara, thanks very much for helping me to understand that the Mahayana didn't invent these concepts. I am convinced however that they do impose them and that these concepts are an imposition on the Buddha's teaching, because I haven't found any references to them. You're talking much about things like, "some 2000 years ago, the other non-Mahayana schools had already influenced pretty much the whole of Buddhism to accept this doctrine," and, "large amount of material on such cosmology which is found in the Abhidharmakosa, another major non-Mahayana source (which again stems from the Sarvastivadins)." Yes I'm aware that, "the Dharmaguptakas adhered to this notion in their Buddha biographical material."
Sarvastivadins. Please explain how the Buddha's teachings or his close commentators explained the thousandfold, millionfold, and billionfold world-systems. I haven't been able to find such concepts in the Theravada, but you've told me that pretty much the whole of Buddhism accepted this doctrine. I don't discredit the claim, but I can't find anything that penetrates the Theravada or the Buddha's original teaching. Where are the chiliocosms accepted?
tiltbillings wrote:
son of dhamma wrote: Maybe I said that I wasn't well-read in the Theravada commentaries. Visuddhimagga isn't a commentary?
It is a - if not the - doctrinal compendium of the Theravada.
I'm aware of this. I cannot find the entire Visuddhimagga commentary, so I would appreciate it if you could simply reference the section concerning Buddha-fields--still I cannot find such are references.
PeterB wrote:Son Of Dhamma if you really want to live up to your epithet I suggest that you curb your ambition and spend the time learning Vipassana instead.
I don't live up to things that I say or claims that I make. For me, it's the other way around. If you insist on commenting on my practice which you don't know of, and telling me to learn vipassanna, then I'll ask what epithet you're referring to.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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son of dhamma
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by son of dhamma »

Surely not "son of Dhamma"? That isn't a very constructive thing to say about someone.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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tiltbillings
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by tiltbillings »

son of dhamma wrote: I cannot find the entire Visuddhimagga commentary, so I would appreciate it if you could simply reference the section concerning Buddha-fields--still I cannot find such are references.
See http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 67#p107860" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by PeterB »

Au contraire its a highly consructive thing to suggest to an 18 year old to steer them away from Talking School Buddhism, which has never aided anyone in finding the way out of Dukkha, and pointing them to what will.
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by son of dhamma »

tiltbillings wrote: See http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 67#p107860" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I found the book and managed look into these pages. I see, that's very helpful. I didn't know that Buddhaghosa claimed the chiliocosm, dichiliocosm, and trichiliocosm, or that they constituted three levels of "Buddha-fields". I appreciate that very much, Tilt. Do you have any other information regarding the connections of this material, as I haven't found them mentioned anywhere else in the Theravada texts.
PeterB wrote:Au contraire its a highly consructive thing to suggest to an 18 year old to steer them away from Talking School Buddhism, which has never aided anyone in finding the way out of Dukkha, and pointing them to what will.
I think that you're making some presumptions here, Pete. You shouldn't assume that I don't have a foundation of practice and that I'm of some Talking School, and my age is hardly a presupposition to belittle my understanding of the Buddhadhamma and experience of vipassanna. I'm telling you that this was uncalled-for.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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tiltbillings
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by tiltbillings »

son of dhamma wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: See http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 67#p107860" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I found the book and managed look into these pages. I see, that's very helpful. I didn't know that Buddhaghosa claimed the chiliocosm, dichiliocosm, and trichiliocosm, or that they constituted three levels of "Buddha-fields". I appreciate that very much, Tilt. Do you have any other information regarding the connections of this material, as I haven't found them mentioned anywhere else in the Theravada texts.
It is likely something Buddhaghosa brought from the mainland.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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son of dhamma
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by son of dhamma »

Do you know much about what was taking place doctrinally on the mainland? Anyone? I'd like to understand more in-depth the relation to the Buddha's teaching here.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by tiltbillings »

son of dhamma wrote:Do you know much about what was taking place doctrinally on the mainland? Anyone? I'd like to understand more in-depth the relation to the Buddha's teaching here.
with metta
I thought you said you were well read. You might avail yourself of some quality time spent with Rupert Gethin's THE FOUNDATIONS OF BUDDHISM and A.K. Warder's INDIAN BUDDHISM and Peter Harvey's AN INTRODUCTION TO BUDDHISM: TEACHINGS, HISTORY AND PRACTICES and Paul William's BUDDHIST THOUGHT and J. Bronkhorst's BUDDHIST TEACHINGS IN INDIA and Richard Gombrich's WHAT THE BUDDHA THOUGHT.

And if you really want to impress the folks: E Lamotte's HISTORY OF INDIAN BUDDHISM.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Paññāsikhara
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by Paññāsikhara »

And of course Bareau's 1955 Les Sectes Bouddhiques Du Petit Vehicule.

In particular, three main lines: Sarvastivada, Vatsiputriya / Sammitiya, and Mahasamghika. That would cover most of the Buddhist tradition over that time.
Please explain how the Buddha's teachings or his close commentators explained the thousandfold, millionfold, and billionfold world-systems. I haven't been able to find such concepts in the Theravada, but you've told me that pretty much the whole of Buddhism accepted this doctrine. I don't discredit the claim, but I can't find anything that penetrates the Theravada or the Buddha's original teaching. Where are the chiliocosms accepted?
I gave the sources in my first response. Try the Mahavibhasa, the Prajnapti Sastra, and Lokaprajnapti Sastra.
You may also wish to look at the Ekottaragama (and commentary) and biographical literature such as the Lalitavistara, Abhiniskramana, etc.
All are pretty much pre-Mahayana.

For post-/non-Mahayana, then the Kosa is a good place to start, and the critique of the Nyananusara. Also vague reference in the Vimuttimagga (I think).

Not at all sure what you mean by "can't find anything that penetrates the Theravada or the Buddha's original teaching". But the gist of the above is pretty clear as to where these teachings are coming from.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by son of dhamma »

Indeed it is. Thanks very much friends.
with metta
Sometimes no Buddhas arise in the world. Sometimes they do. When it happens, it is for the welfare and happiness of men, out of compassion for all creatures. For a long, long time he has been working to become a Buddha. He met other Buddhas along the way. And after his long striving he attains his final life, yet not without showing everyone else how to get there.
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
son of dhamma wrote:Do you know much about what was taking place doctrinally on the mainland? Anyone? I'd like to understand more in-depth the relation to the Buddha's teaching here.
with metta
I thought you said you were well read. You might avail yourself of some quality time spent with Rupert Gethin's THE FOUNDATIONS OF BUDDHISM and A.K. Warder's INDIAN BUDDHISM and Peter Harvey's AN INTRODUCTION TO BUDDHISM: TEACHINGS, HISTORY AND PRACTICES and Paul William's BUDDHIST THOUGHT and J. Bronkhorst's BUDDHIST TEACHINGS IN INDIA and Richard Gombrich's WHAT THE BUDDHA THOUGHT.

And if you really want to impress the folks: E Lamotte's HISTORY OF INDIAN BUDDHISM.
Or better yet, just read the actual doctrines of the surviving schools, such as the Theravada Abhidhamma, the Sarvastivadan Abhidharma, and the Commentaries and treatises of Theravada and Mahayana traditions, all the way up to modern day Commentaries.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: World Cycles and Cosmic Systems

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
son of dhamma wrote:Do you know much about what was taking place doctrinally on the mainland? Anyone? I'd like to understand more in-depth the relation to the Buddha's teaching here.
with metta
I thought you said you were well read. You might avail yourself of some quality time spent with Rupert Gethin's THE FOUNDATIONS OF BUDDHISM and A.K. Warder's INDIAN BUDDHISM and Peter Harvey's AN INTRODUCTION TO BUDDHISM: TEACHINGS, HISTORY AND PRACTICES and Paul William's BUDDHIST THOUGHT and J. Bronkhorst's BUDDHIST TEACHINGS IN INDIA and Richard Gombrich's WHAT THE BUDDHA THOUGHT.

And if you really want to impress the folks: E Lamotte's HISTORY OF INDIAN BUDDHISM.
Or better yet, just read the actual doctrines of the surviving schools, such as the Theravada Abhidhamma, the Sarvastivadan Abhidharma, and the Commentaries and treatises of Theravada and Mahayana traditions, all the way up to modern day Commentaries.

Kevin
Hardly better yet. First of all, a lot of the stuff you listed is very hard to come by in English, and what is little is actually available in English, such as the Abhidharmakosa, is very expensive. Secondly, the books I listed are histories of Buddhist ideas, putting the various developments into their contexts relarive to vaious schools. This is not something that is going to be had by reading the raw texts. It is well worth having the contexts before or as one reads these texts, assuming one is trying to understand how the various schools relate to each other and developed over time.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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