YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Bhante G vs. Bhante G - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:35 am

Anyway, MN 111, the Paṭisambhidāmagga, and the Dhammasaṅgaṇī are all canonical authorities which support Bhante G's teachings on developing vipassanā within jhāna.

All the best,

Geoff

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:14 am

Hi Geoff

I note your point about the "anupadadhammavipassanāya hoti" preface. I think I will go with the standard sutta formula of insight/vipassana being described by "pajanati", which in MN 111 is found only in the 2nd cluster, and not with the 1st cluster.

In fact, anupadadhammavipassanāya being a reference to the "pajanati" cluster fits in nicely with the attainments where there is no reference to "anupada". I mentioned previously that the final 2 sequences do not have "pajanati", unlike the sequences describing vipassana into the first 7 attainments (nor do the final 2 contain the anupada refrain, given the diminishment/absence of sanna)). This gives a nice fit of what anupadadhammavipassanāya was intended to refer to, ie the "pajanati" refrains in the first 7 attainments, which is the standard sutta method of describing vipassana. And these refrains, as I have pointed out, are clearly indicated by the verb forms to be temporally disjunct from the anupada refrains. I think a textbook grammatical construction of MN 111 is actually in favour of post-Jhana vipassana. It just does not come through in the English.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:25 am


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:35 am

Hi Geoff

I think it's going to be difficult to hang MN 111's "vavatthita" dhamma onto the Dhammasangani, especially when the Dhammasangani's list of synonyms for "vipassana" includes the usual suspects (including the noun root pajānanā for MN 111's verb pajanati) but no sight at all of vavatthāna or any of its verb derivatives.

As for the Patisambhidamagga, I ran through its Gocaranānattañāṇaniddesa and sussed out its usage of the verb "vavattheti". Unsurprisingly, it is applied to external sounds as well (plus the other 4 external sense objects). Is the meditator in Jhana receiving such external data so that can he "vavattheti" them while in Jhana? Seems to run contrary to the axiom that "sound is a thorn in first jhana". It's clear that the Patisambhidamagga's usage of "vavattheti" allows for post-Jhana work.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:40 am

Despite the small scale sniping, this is a rather interesting debate. Thanks to both of you.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:46 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:37 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:18 pm

Last edited by Sylvester on Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:37 pm


User avatar
Alexei
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Alexei » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:59 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:00 am

Hi Alexei

Your query is in fact related to present tense issue that Piya Tan addresses in the link I posted on page 1. He cites Warder's treatment of the present tense at section 6.2.2.1.

Doubtless, "tattha" indicates whatever that is in Jhana, but the present tense of the anupassati itself is not indicative of missa/simultaneity with the arising or presence of the jhana dhammas.

In fact, one of the points that I have been making about AN 9.36 in this thread is to tie in AN 9.36's characterisation of the first 7 attainments as sannasamapatti, to the vipasanna refrains in MN 111. My suspicion is that given the importance of a functional sanna in qualifying whether or not an attainment is a sannasamapatti or otherwise, we should pay special attention to the verb clusters that differentiate the 7 attainments from the final 2 attainments and see if sanna pertains to the clusters.

Vavatthita and vidita from MN 111 are clustered only into the treatment of the 7 attainments, implying either-

1. they are somehow functional aspects of sanna; or
2. (given the different participles used for vidita v gacchanti etc), vavatthita/vidita could be related to the work done with the paccavekkhaṇa nimitta (reviewing sign), discussed in AN 5.28. There, it is quite clear that the work of "reviewing" is a state apart from the Jhanas themselves.

Either way, MN 111 ends off the 7 attainments with the standard vipassana terminology (pajanati), which differs from the language used for the final 2 attainments. The difference seems also to be covered by AN 9.36, but not directly addressed, save that we can imply that anupassati is not really functional in the final 2 attainments, given the absence of anupassati exhortation for the final 2. Some other form of vipassana work seems to be needed.

I hope the above answers your query.

Perhaps you could share with us how you think anupassati in the 2nd Jhana upwards can take place within that jhana, when vitakka-vicara have disappeared?

User avatar
Alexei
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 1:51 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Alexei » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:25 am

Thank you for your reply, Sylvester.
I try not to take sides because my practical experience is limited. Issue about anupassati in the 2nd jhana is question for me.

But is also statement "Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations" (So tattha ṭhito āsavānaṃ khayaṃ pāpuṇāti) below "vipassana part". It looks quite strange considering absense of indications of leaving jhana. And MN 111 contains clear description of leaving jhana for the last two attainments (only).

Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:31 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:01 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:37 pm


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:23 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:13 am


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:12 pm


Sylvester
Posts: 2205
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Sylvester » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:07 pm

I'm glad to see you resorting to more ex cathedras. :woohoo:

As far as I can see, your aversion to grammar is nothing more than a blatant attempt to sweep aside everything that is inconvenient to your readings of the suttas. There is nothing acrobatic in my critique of your arguments and citations but I think accolades must go to you for your attempts to re-write Pali grammar; those do not bear recapitulating but I really love your attempt to transform a declinable verb into an adverb with hoti/honti. :juggling:

And I have not seen any evidence that you have successfully demonstrated the unsustainability of my reliance on Pali grammar over English grammar, other than your tired refrain to the Dhammasangani (which turns out to be 11 sets of iddapaccayata propositions instead of 56 ontological dhammas) or the Psm (I'm still waiting for your much vaunted passages for its vavattheti-in-jhana treatment).

Pleading "context" and "pan-Buddhist" appeals does not count for anything when the plain old grammatical readings in Pali of MN 111, AN 9.36 and MN 127 all point towards jhanas being truly models of absorption. If you wish to argue that an idiomatic meaning is to prevail, demonstrate it by reference to the Grammars. Your erudition and readings do not endow you with some magic wand with which you wave into existence ideas on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

This has not really been a waste of time. For me, for some strange reason, you bring to the table more and more evidence of absorption each time we engage the jhana subject. For the others, a cautionary tale on reading English translations without a good teacher looking over one's shoulder.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Bhante G vs. Bhante G

Postby Nyana » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:14 pm



Return to “Connections to Other Paths”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine