Incorrect use of the teachings vs correct use

[Wizard in the Forest]

I remember in the Nikayas several explanations in which people who use the Dhamma as a tool to engage people in debate was censured, and the people who did that were said to not grasp its true meaning. I am of the opinion that the teachings should also not be a tool to be used to gain popularity or favor with people. I just don't remember where there was discussion of incorrect use of the teachings. I remember the Simile of the snake, but not any other specific cases where the use of the teachings specifically was discussed. Can anyone help me out with finding these suttas?

[PeterB]

If one of the uses of the Dhamma is not to engage people in debate...at least about Dhamma, then we should all pack up our tents and steal away quietly.
After you....

[Wizard in the Forest]

"Suppose there were a man needing a water-snake, seeking a water-snake, wandering in search of a water-snake. He would see a large water-snake and grasp it by the coils or by the tail. The water-snake, turning around, would bite him on the hand, on the arm, or on one of his limbs, and from that cause he would suffer death or death-like suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the water-snake. In the same way, there is the case where some worthless men study the Dhamma... Having studied the Dhamma, they don't ascertain the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment. Not having ascertained the meaning of those Dhammas with their discernment, they don't come to an agreement through pondering. They study the Dhamma both for attacking others and for defending themselves in debate. They don't reach the goal for which [people] study the Dhamma. Their wrong grasp of those Dhammas will lead to their long-term harm & suffering. Why is that? Because of the wrong-graspedness of the Dhammas.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

C'mon now, don't be cheeky, I'm looking for answers, not a fight. This is the one I know about, and I'm looking for more if others can help me find them. I'm looking myself too.

[PeterB]

In that case I suggest you revisit your post.

[plwk]

Haliddakani Sutta
Pasura Sutta
Viggahika Sutta
Kathavatthu Sutta
Udayi Sutta

[Wizard in the Forest]

In that case I suggest you revisit your post.

Which post are you speaking of, if it's alright to ask?

[Wizard in the Forest]

Thank you Plwk, I know I can rely on you for help.

[chownah]

In that case I suggest you revisit your post.

Which post are you speaking of, if it's alright to ask?

I know you weren't asking me but I believe that he was referring to the first sentence of your original post for this thread where you wrote:
"I remember in the Nikayas several explanations in which people who use the Dhamma as a tool to engage people in debate was censured, and the people who did that were said to not grasp its true meaning."

I believe that he was disagreeing with the concept that the Dhamma should across the board not be used for engaging people in debate in that he seems to be of the opinion that some debate (e.g. debate on the Dhamma) is a useful thing.....but this is just my view of what he has posted.

chownah

[PeterB]

That will do nicely Chownah...

[Wizard in the Forest]

That's one thing, but that's coming from wrong grasp of it, according to what the teachings say about themselves.

[PeterB]

Oh I am quite sure I have all sorts of wrong grasps of all sorts of things. I rather thought was what the forum was for....to have my wrong views challenged. And thereby to correct them.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I rather thought was what the forum was for....to have my wrong views challenged. And thereby to correct them.

That's grasping the forum correctly.

Metta,
Retro.

[Hanzze]

I think those two pictures are useful in additional to this very good topic, thanks for open it!

5. WISDOM SPRUNG OUR OF "THE MUD"



This picture is another symbol of mind and body, or nama and rupa. The body here, is represented as mud beneath the water while the mind is the lotus that springs from the mud. Unlike the loethsomeness of the body, the lotus is fragrant and our. The turbulence of the waters and the fish therein are all the worldly desires which agitate the mind. The man emerging from the lotus is holding a disc and a sword which symbolize the wisdom that cuts off and removes all defilements (kilesa). Defilement here, is represented by the boy approaching the enlightened man who, triumphant, pays no attention. The man in the right-hand corner holding the lotus-fruit has practised meditation and has found the way out of the darkness, having seen for himself the Fruit of Dhamma.

18. WRONG PRACTICE OF BUDDHA-DHAMMA




The Buddha, here representing the true teaching, is being attacked by three monks and one laymen. The fact that there is only one layman attacking the teachings indicates that many monks, once having been ordinated in the order, continue to follow false path and are attached to ceremony. They are indifferent to the true teachings and prefer the Wheel of Wandering-on to Nibbana.

(Monks, as they are more conspicuous than layman and because they are supposed to be devoting their lives to the Three Gems, and because it is known that they have many precepts to keep pure, can attack the Dhamma by misconduct in a more violent way than is possible for laypeople)

From Teaching Dhamma with pictures

[PeterB]

Que ?

[Wizard in the Forest]

No se, estoy confundida porque Hanzze simpre habla asi.