Debts

[cooran]

Pros and Cons of Bankruptcy Filing United States of America:
This provision of filing bankruptcy has been provided as an aid and not as an escape route. One should seek bankruptcy advice from specialist lawyers before filing it. Use the bankruptcy filing option wisely and only under extreme case of emergency, as its has repercussions on everything that you do in the future!
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/bankrupt ... uptcy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What consequences are there when filing for bankruptcy in Australia?
http://www.badcreditpersonalloans.com.a ... ences.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Top ten questions about filing for bankruptcy in England:
http://www.bankrupt.co.uk/bankruptcy-top-ten-faq.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Alex123]

Hello Cooran,

from your link

Debt Free Status: Once you have paid a certain number of prearranged monthly payments, set by the court, you are completely debt free, according to Chapter 13 bankruptcy rules!
...
No Further Legal Action
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/bankrupt ... uptcy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great. So one becomes very quickly debt free (not a debtor), and no further legal actions against one, so nothing to make one undesirable for ordination.

As for assets being taken away: One will give away more assets by ordaining than by filing bankruptcy. One keeps much more stuff by being bankrupt than by ordaining. One is going to let go of worldly things as one ordains anyways, so assets being taken away by bankruptcy doesn't matter.


Depending on individual circumstances and local rules, it may be possible to quicken the process. It seems that if bankruptcy is in corporation, and there is no personal guarantee, then one is off the hook as soon as bankruptcy is filed. So one can ordain much quicker.

[Ben]

The moral thing to do is to pay off your debt before you go for ordination. It will provide you with a more stable foundation for future ordination and a return to lay-life should being a bhikkhu not suit you. In the meantime, continue to practice as a lay-person until your financial and family situation changes. I also second Cooran's excellent suggestion of identifying long retreats that maybe suitable for your means. My own tradition (SN Goenka) provides 10-day and longer courses* on a dana-only basis. And I am sure there are other traditions that offer similar 'dana-only' courses. Being a lay-person isn't second rate by any means.

* Long courses are only available to 'old students' who meet the course pre-requisites.

[Alex123]

The moral thing to do is to pay off your debt before you go for ordination.

That doesn't work in all cases. What if, lets say, one has $10 million USD debt (this is tiny amount that one could have gotten oneself into, even with no money down of one own)? One ain't gonna ever be able to pay it off even with a good above average $100K salary. The interest alone would be too much (even at ridiculously and unrealistic low interest of 1% it would be 100k per year) to pay off.

What then?

When one goes bankrupt, one is no longer obliged to pay creditors (beyond a certain, usually tiny, amount. And it is paid to a bankruptcy trustee, not to creditors ). Depending on how the business was structured and bankruptcy carried out, one could declare bankruptcy, loose that business (which you would loose anyways if you ordain) and not legally owe anything to anyone and have no legal action against you? So you are not in debt anymore.

IMHO leading the holy life as a bhikkhu is much more moral, and some monetary debts may never be paid off. So why prefer paying off monetary debts over leading a holy life as a Bhikkhu?

Ultimately business is risky, and can fail. Too bad for creditors, they should have known better. This is samsara, eat or be eaten. It is much better to live a holy life. When it comes to business, it is not charity. What I've learned from experience of others is that either you rip them off, or they rip you off.
Being nice is bad for business. If you are nice, then they will say or imply that "if your a good guy, then you owe me. You're good guy, aren't you?."



I understand that in Buddha's time the rules were much harsher, and one could be liquidated (or taken as a slave) for debt. So Buddha perhaps didn't want members of the sangha to be hunted down by angry creditors. But this isn't 5BC India. Creditors usually don't hunt down debtors, and laws are much more humane. So no such bad situation can occur and a bankrupt person is legally protected against creditors and all his unsecured debt can be written off.

[torqz]

I am in a similar situation, I have debts up to my eyeballs of about £20,000

Does anyone have any good, ethical ideas about how to make some HARD CASH?!

[Ben]

Does anyone have any good, ethical ideas about how to make some HARD CASH?!

Get a job.

[Viscid]

Does anyone have any good, ethical ideas about how to make some HARD CASH?!

Get a job.

[andre9999]

Does anyone have any good, ethical ideas about how to make some HARD CASH?!

Get a job.

And get off Ben's lawn!

[Annapurna]

Does anyone have any good, ethical ideas about how to make some HARD CASH?!

Get a job.

[ashtanga]

I have to say as the original poster here i am shocked at recent posts. whats with this 'get a job' attitude??? How remarabley opinionated! I can only gather you mumble that when walking past 'beggars' on the street too?!

Many of us are in debt not through choice, but as a result of divorce, career changes etc. If we decide that we would like to make a change to a more dedicated life to the Dhamma then I would hope that we would be better recieved with a more 'compassionate' attitude than 'get a job'...!

You should be ashamed of yourselves!

Look again at your practice!

[Ben]

I have to say as the original poster here i am shocked at recent posts. whats with this 'get a job' attitude??? How remarabley opinionated!

According to who, you?

I can only gather you mumble that when walking past 'beggars' on the street too?!

No, I gave to them. Particularly to the ones who had arms amputated at the shoulder, beggers who had no eyes or have leprosy, polio. People who live in societies where there is no welfare safety-net, people who live in societies where the government does absolutely nothing to assist them following a natural disaster. In other words, people with real problems.

Many of us are in debt not through choice, but as a result of divorce, career changes etc.

And you live in a society where you have access to state-of-the-art health care, access to clean drinking water and food. Whatever your 'problems' are, they are insubstantial given what most people in the world endure. And they are 'problems' that have manifested through your own decisions and choices.

If we decide that we would like to make a change to a more dedicated life to the Dhamma then I would hope that we would be better recieved with a more 'compassionate' attitude than 'get a job'...!

It was actually very compassionate. The OP needs to pay off his debt before he joins a monastery. His question was a no-brainer. If he wants to access 'hard cash' to pay off his debt so as to join a monastery, then he needs to get a job - period.
Its not very 'Dhammic' to attempt to escape one's fiscal or social responsibilities to join a monastery. In fact, its why the Buddha would not receive people into the order if they had not discharged their responsibilities in lay life.

You should be ashamed of yourselves!.

But I'm not.

Look again at your practice!

I do constantly. Perhaps you should look at yours.

[Alex123]

The OP needs to pay off his debt before he joins a monastery. His question was a no-brainer.

Except when the debt is too large, there may not be a real possibility of paying it off. So bankruptcy is a possible solution. If someone has, lets say, 1-10 million dollar debt (was very easy to get in US/Canada without using your own money) - s/he ain't gonna be able to pay it off even with an above average job. The interest alone will set one back.

So what then?

Do we value finances more than holy life as a Bhikkhu?


When one declares bankruptcy, there is no more debt to the creditors. So one is not indebted, and can ordain with no pangs of guilt.

[Ben]

The OP needs to pay off his debt before he joins a monastery. His question was a no-brainer.

Except when the debt is too large, there may not be a real possibility of paying it off. So bankruptcy is a possible solution. If someone has, lets say, 1-10 million dollar debt (was very easy to get in US/Canada without using your own money) - s/he ain't gonna be able to pay it off even with an above average job. The interest alone will set one back.

So what then?

What planet are you on Alex?
I don't think any of our members are in the category of holding a $1m to $10m debt.

[Alex123]

If any of them have small business (especially a failing one), then it would be very likely for them to have that kind of debt. But of course, it varies.

I was giving an example. What should one do if one has that much debt? Debts above a certain amount, can't be paid off especially if we consider interest.

[Ben]

Do we value finances more than holy life as a Bhikkhu?.

I think you've missed the point.

When one declares bankruptcy, there is no more debt to the creditors. So one is not indebted

Really? Tell that to a creditor.

and can ordain with no pangs of guilt.

Again, I think you've missed the point.