Sacha G wrote:So what do you think?
nathan wrote:Sacha G wrote:So what do you think?
If your simply soliciting opinion then I would reply that this type of question and all similar questions such as, 'could a Buddha be Swedish', etc. are properly viewed in light of the Buddha's arrow metaphor wherein someone struck by an arrow refuses to have it pulled out before first ascertaining what sort of arrow it is, where it was made, what it was made from, who sent it and so on. To be honest, any truly satisfactory potential answers to such questions, even this one specifically, can only be had by realizing the fruit of arahatta for oneself, in the interim the best practice is to set these kinds of concerns aside.
Sacha G wrote:Hi
The question "Does the arhat survive after death" seems at first a legitimate question. The Buddha, as many may know, didn't anwer simply yes or no but pointed to the fact that the arhat is not even found in the present, so how could he survived or be annihilated. Ultimately that is true.
If now I say: "will you come to my dinner tomorrow?" and you would answer "since I'm not found even in the present, how could I come to your dinner", you would understand that I'm not very satisfied.
In the same way, the arhat is annihilated after death, when one speaks according to the convention of the world seems a good way of saying. In the same way that you say "he left the room", meaning "the five aggregates of X left the room", you might say "the arhat got annihilated at death" meaning "the 5 aggregates were annihilated" (apart from form, which stays some time, I agree).
I kind of feel there's a mixing of plans (ultimate and conventional) which troubles me.
Of course the Buddha had specific reasons to answer as he did, but to me, it is less clear than generally agreed.
Hope this was not too confused.
So what do you think?
At Savatthi. Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One,
paid homage to him, sat down to one side, and said to him: "Venerable sir,
it is said, 'cessation, cessation.' Through the cessation of what things is
cessation spoken of?" "Form, etc, consciousness, Ananda, is impermanent,
conditioned, dependently arisen, subject to destruction, to vanishing, to
fading away, to cessation. Through its cessation, cessation is spoken of.
When an Arhat dies, he/she enters into a Parinibbana, a blissful unconditioned state of total Unbinding. It could best be described as the final freedom and liberation from the cycle of Samsara; an awe-inspiring liberation of cosmic awareness not subject to birth and death.
It's hard to describe. Even the great Blessed One himself, The Buddha, didn't go into much detail because the scope of parinibbana escapes worldly language.
(Source: "Parinibbana Sutra: Total Unbinding", Access to Insight)
Nibbana remains not Vinnana by Ven. Ajahn Sujato wrote:When passages such as the ‘anidassana vinnana’ or the ‘pabhassara citta’ are invoked to lend support for the notion that Nibbana is an eternal cosmic awareness that survives the death of an arahant, the first question we should ask is, ‘Do these phrases actually refer clearly to the state of an arahant after death?’ If they don’t, they are irrelevant to the problem. We all agree that an arahant is conscious before their death.
Arguments for the ‘eternal-consciousness Nibbana’ almost invariably tend to slip from talking about the citta or vinnana in this life to the state after death. It is a subtle sleight of hand, which pivots on the ambiguity of the term Nibbana, and is hidden by the conceptual fog that mere mention of the term evokes. Read the Wikipedia article for a good example of how this works.
Nibbana is an enigma, elusive, threatening, uncompromising. It will never be tamed, no matter how hard we try to pretend that it’s something like something. It’s not. It’s nothing like anything.
coreycook950 wrote:..So I say "awe-inspiring liberation of awareness"....
I say "Not subject to birth & death" because an Arhat, after death, is no longer subject to any more birth and death.
Do you see why I say this?
coreycook950 wrote:Like a flame's unbinding
was the liberation
coreycook950 wrote:It was awe-inspiring.
It was hair-raising
when, displaying the foremost
accomplishment in all things,
the Rightly Self-Awakened One
was totally Unbound.
"Then there was terror,
Then there was trepidation,
When the one perfect in all excellent qualities,
The Buddha, attained final Nibbana."
At the final extinction of the rightfully Enlightened One,
All kinds of noble things happened which inspired awe,
And my hairs stood on end.
Users browsing this forum: Yong Fa and 51 guests