Are you ready?

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Reductor
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Are you ready?

Postby Reductor » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:34 am

Last night the wife, kids and I returned home from a good evening swim. We washed the kids and turned 'em loose to play a while before bed. Shortly afterward I shouted at them to stop running around. Because it is usual for them to do that, I didn't really intervene -- just bellyache. I should have done more.

My son tripped and slammed into the closet door, and my wife was quick to scold my daughter for chaseing him around. While she was doing that, my son came into the kitchen. I looked at him only to realize that something was very wrong: he was staring at the ceiling with hist mouth agape in a silent scream. His face was contorted and white. Then he began reaching up to claw at his mouth.

I grabbed shoulders and said (yelled) "son, are you alright!" he kept staring and grabbing, then his eyes went out of focus and ceased to move around. He went limp, so I laid him on the floor. My wife was screaming, my daughter was crying and my little boy wasn't breathing. I told the wife to call 911 and to shut up (she was in a panic). I laid my ear to his mouth as I remembered that I had to check his breath. I placed my palm on his chest, and felt that his heart was beating hard and fast. My wife was shouting our address into the phone.

"Why isn't he breathing? is he as good as dead? is his head in the right position for a breath? how far in am I going to compress his chest, if his heart stops?" so many questions and no certainty.

I realized that he would need artificial respiration (AR), because his heart was still beating. But luckily I didn't even begin, because he started struggling to breath on his own just as I was placing his head in position.

I sat him up, propping his body against my leg, and started talking to him. He took a deep breath and started kicking, urinating all over the floor. Then he started screaming. The whole event last two minutes, maybe. May it never be repeated.

After a quick assessment to see if he knew where he was and what was happening I checked him over more carefully. Then we cancelled the ambulance, but didn't go to the hospital (although I wanted too). I didn't sleep well that night as I was checking on him every 20 minutes to make sure he was alright. He has a doctors appointment monday, just in case he has some condition that will make him prone to seizures.

It was definitely the most horrifying experience of my life.

What I want to say, to everyone, is that if you haven't had First Aid training of some kind, get it! If he hadn't started to breath, then what would have happened? What if I hadn't ever been taught anything at all, as I know is the case for most people? Would he then have died on my kitchen floor?!

Get some training, just in case you find yourself standing over a loved one -- or a friend or stranger.

Seriously.

FYI: Canada loves the universal health care, but it sure ain't free. No free ambulance, and a 12 hour wait in the ER for those that don't come by way of stretcher.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Ben
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:00 am

Oh my lord!
I'm sorry to learn of your traumatic event. I hope it never occurs again.
But, please, take your son to see a doctor as soon as you can. Don't wait until Monday.
I send you and your family my metta

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Are you ready?

Postby cooran » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:37 am

Dear thereductor,

:group: I'm so sorry for your son, you and your family. I agree with Ben, please please take him to a doctor asap. Additionally, what you have gone through could have post traumatic stress implications for you all. How precious, and how precarious, is life. I rejoice that this has been resolved happily.

It makes me recall how I felt when my adult son was staying with me, took a mug from the dishwasher, made some tea, took a quick mouthful. He began gesticulating frantically. He could hardly breathe. We were in a rural area, the ambulance hadn't come in twenty minutes so I drove him to the local hospital. They discovered that a square plastic closer from a bread packet had been in the mug. It lodged in his throat and almost covered his airway They managed to get it out. It affected both of us for some months.

with mahametta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby andre9999 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:52 am

Get to an ER. We can all discuss the rest later.

May cost you a bunch of money and time, but as a father I wouldn't risk it.

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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Kenshou » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:57 am

!

That's awful, but also lucky. Hope he checks out alright.

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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Aloka » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:58 am

Please, please take your son to a doctor as soon as possible for a checkup, thereductor.

with metta,

Aloka

.

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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jan 14, 2011 8:28 am

thereductor wrote:Last night the wife, kids and I returned home from a good evening swim. We washed the kids and turned 'em loose to play a while before bed. Shortly afterward I shouted at them to stop running around. Because it is usual for them to do that, I didn't really intervene -- just bellyache. I should have done more.

My son tripped and slammed into the closet door, and my wife was quick to scold my daughter for chaseing him around. While she was doing that, my son came into the kitchen. I looked at him only to realize that something was very wrong: he was staring at the ceiling with hist mouth agape in a silent scream. His face was contorted and white. Then he began reaching up to claw at his mouth.

I grabbed shoulders and said (yelled) "son, are you alright!" he kept staring and grabbing, then his eyes went out of focus and ceased to move around. He went limp, so I laid him on the floor. My wife was screaming, my daughter was crying and my little boy wasn't breathing. I told the wife to call 911 and to shut up (she was in a panic). I laid my ear to his mouth as I remembered that I had to check his breath. I placed my palm on his chest, and felt that his heart was beating hard and fast. My wife was shouting our address into the phone.

"Why isn't he breathing? is he as good as dead? is his head in the right position for a breath? how far in am I going to compress his chest, if his heart stops?" so many questions and no certainty.

I realized that he would need artificial respiration (AR), because his heart was still beating. But luckily I didn't even begin, because he started struggling to breath on his own just as I was placing his head in position.

I sat him up, propping his body against my leg, and started talking to him. He took a deep breath and started kicking, urinating all over the floor. Then he started screaming. The whole event last two minutes, maybe. May it never be repeated.

After a quick assessment to see if he knew where he was and what was happening I checked him over more carefully. Then we cancelled the ambulance, but didn't go to the hospital (although I wanted too). I didn't sleep well that night as I was checking on him every 20 minutes to make sure he was alright. He has a doctors appointment monday, just in case he has some condition that will make him prone to seizures.

It was definitely the most horrifying experience of my life.

What I want to say, to everyone, is that if you haven't had First Aid training of some kind, get it! If he hadn't started to breath, then what would have happened? What if I hadn't ever been taught anything at all, as I know is the case for most people? Would he then have died on my kitchen floor?!

Get some training, just in case you find yourself standing over a loved one -- or a friend or stranger.

Seriously.

FYI: Canada loves the universal health care, but it sure ain't free. No free ambulance, and a 12 hour wait in the ER for those that don't come by way of stretcher.


The reducutor

yes I am ready, A, because I have a medical education, (but I'm no doctor and would feel challenged) and B, in Germany a First Aid course is mandatory to get a driver's licence.

I am sorry you had this scary experience.

And I have to agree with the others befotre that you need to take your son to an ambulance before the weekend, asap-

This condition may happen again, anytime, and with a less fortunate outcome.

Then you would fret over the fact that saving money for the ambulance was worth more to you than your child's safety.


I'm serious.

I understand you did it, but just imagine it would happen again and he dies, then you would give everything that you possess to get your loved one back, and you would be burdened by guilt and remorse until you die.


It may never happen again, and it may happen again.

If it happens again, make sure his throat and windpipe are free of things he may have inhaled, -not breathing, clawing and fast heartbeat is pointing at this, but he could have also had a cramp in the throat, and by passing out the cramp losened, which is also why he urinated.

Open the mouth and look in, remove possible things.

Hold him up by the feet, gently shake him and pat him with a flat hand between the shoulders, to losen stuff and cramps.

This is what I would suggest, perhaps Peter knows something better, he has a vaster education than me.

Good luck, and I wish you all the best, and that he is alright.

PS: Since he slammed into the door, it could have to do with that.
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Reductor
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Reductor » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:35 pm

Thank you everyone for the well wishes. He appears as right as rain for the time being.

I understand the impulse to take him to ER: but from what I know (and have experienced) of the ER here in town I don't feel confident that taking him there is the solution, unless of course he needs immediate intervention. Certainly if there is another incident I will have an ambulance take him whether or not he recovers his breath and consciousness. I do regret not doing so the first time, but in my infinite wisdom I thought twice and cancelled the ambulance. I shan't be doing so again.

However, the ER is not the place for an in depth diagnosis by any stretch. The appointment on Monday is a much surer thing. And up here getting an appointment as soon as Monday is a miracle right up there with turning water to wine.

And thank you Anna for the advice. What kind of training do you have?

Myself, I have trained to be a paramedic, but as of now have not used any of it professionally. There is something about standing over your own little kid, though, that makes the whole experience a lesson in awfulness that I don't think would be present in an employment scenario.

And to those that don't have first aid, I ask you to get it. Come on people.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Are you ready?

Postby bodom » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:43 pm

May you, your son and all of your family and friends be peaceful, happy and free from suffering.

:group:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Khalil Bodhi » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:06 pm

May your family be safe and secure. May the devas protect you! I am sorry for your experience and hope that you are all well now. :heart:
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby andre9999 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:13 pm

Glad to hear that he's doing well. I'm used to US hopitals, where I can get an MRI and CAT at virtually every hospital, and ER wait times are roughly fifteen minutes. And boy do I pay for that privilege.

I don't have first aid training except as an army combat lifesaver (essentially stabilize them to get them to a medic). So basically, if my son gets shot, I know how to give a tourniquet.

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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Viscid » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:49 pm

I work in a Canadian ER and in Ontario the ambulances are $45 (unless it was unnecessary), there isn't a 12 hour wait unless you're waiting to be admitted into a bed (maybe 2-4 to see a doctor depending on how busy it is) and it is pretty stupid of you to wait until Monday. If he hit his head, your kid could have a concussion! He needs a CT!
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Reductor
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Reductor » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:04 am

Viscid wrote:I work in a Canadian ER and in Ontario the ambulances are $45 (unless it was unnecessary), there isn't a 12 hour wait unless you're waiting to be admitted into a bed (maybe 2-4 to see a doctor depending on how busy it is) and it is pretty stupid of you to wait until Monday. If he hit his head, your kid could have a concussion! He needs a CT!


Maybe he does, but not for the hit. He hit his lower back and not his head. Perhaps he has some other problem? I don't know.

But this is Alberta, not Ontario, and the ambulance rides do run into the hundreds (I had one some years ago - traveled 3km and paid $400). I have indeed waited 10 or more hours in the local ER many, many, many times because there is only one doctor, except for certain periods during the day (when I have seldom ever went). The triage nurse is God, but still need some obvious indicators by which to prioritize. After my son came too he didn't have any of those things: normal pulse, normal resp, normal LOC, appropriate flushing and only a small bruise on his back nowhere near his head.

And trust me, the nurse trusts her instruments over any thing I might say.

Still, even if I went, and tests were done, all long term treatment would still be taken up by the family physician, so a trip to the doc would still be on the roll. Now don't get me started on the troubles we have keeping good doctors up here, or on how difficult it is to see the shitty ones who stay. Worse, my doctor is out of town (likely house shopping in a bigger city :tongue: ) so I'll get whatever is available.

Sigh.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Are you ready?

Postby lojong1 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:11 am

Sometimes the little blighters can be shocked and embarrassed, and work themselves up to breathlessness, fearing the worst for themselves.
Hone that spidey-sense.

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Reductor
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Reductor » Sat Jan 15, 2011 5:54 am

lojong1 wrote:Sometimes the little blighters can be shocked and embarrassed, and work themselves up to breathlessness, fearing the worst for themselves.
Hone that spidey-sense.


This is possible. The kid has a knack for yelling and crying himself to the point of vomiting. I've seen him scream so long that he did indeed run out of voice.

Looking back, I do think he might simply have pushed himself too far; or perhaps his back hurt just that badly. I certainly would like to think he screamed himself unconscious verses a seizure.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Vepacitta » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:19 pm

Jeez Reductor - just read this thread and so glad your son seems to be ok - like everyone else here I hope you can have him checked out just to be sure. It could be likely that he just screamed himself out of air and so went unconscious but you never know ...

Be well!

V.
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Wizard in the Forest » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:06 am

Since my home has a family daycare, all adults are required to take CPR classes, and emergency first aid. I actually recommend it. But it sounds like it could have been a seizure or maybe an allergy attack with anaphylaxis. Does anyone you know have any severe food or medical allergies? I've noticed that food allergies have become more common with children in the past 5 years, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case.

Either way,

I hope your child is okay, Reductor. I'm sure we all wish for both his full recovery, and good health.
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Ytrog » Tue Jan 18, 2011 7:38 pm

That was a close call Thereductor. I hope that it won't happen again.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.


mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments


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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:47 pm

How's your son thereductor? Did the doctor find anything wrong with him?

Hoping everything is well.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Reductor
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Re: Are you ready?

Postby Reductor » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:19 pm

The kid is alright, although the cause of his episode remains undetermined.

Thanks everyone Vepacitta, WITF, ytrog, modus.ponens and everyone for the well wishes. It is appreciated. :heart:
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72



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