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Plants ~ Borderline Beings? - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:20 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Stiphan
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Stiphan » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:42 pm


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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:42 pm

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:54 pm

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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andre9999
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Re: Plant Life

Postby andre9999 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:10 pm


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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:51 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Jan 14, 2011 6:56 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:03 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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andre9999
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Re: Plant Life

Postby andre9999 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:11 pm


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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:27 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Plant Life

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:07 am

Removed because it violated TOS
Last edited by BubbaBuddhist on Sat Jan 15, 2011 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 15, 2011 8:36 am

Dear andrer9999,

thanks for sharing. As soon people make rules, it has the interest to keep something alive, make it join able for others who do not understand yet. In the same way the Buddha also never teaches to abstain form meat or to eat meat. He also did not teach to have children, or don't have children. He just told about beings and not harming.

If one tells that it is only like that, it would be the next disaster.

I think it is good to follow just the precepts, and the 8fold path. The rest of the told Dhamma is just one hint and the force to look for your self, the next hint (inspiration) and look for your self. Not harming as much as possible and your past karma allows. Or directly walking the safe path that was worked out, with its clear roles. Maybe to bring that up is just a good remembrance for somebody already had leaved the household. You know there is so much like to build and help... which is causing so much suffering.

I am sure that there are more suttas regarding plants.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Plant Life

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 15, 2011 9:04 am

Greetings,

Just a gentle reminder that this is the General Theravada discussion forum, so if we could keep this in mind when presenting further references or opinions that would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:12 am

Kimsuka Sutta: The Riddle Tree
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2011
Alternate translation: Walshe

A certain monk went to another monk and, on arrival, said to him, "To what extent, my friend, is a monk's vision said to be well-purified?"

"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the six media of sensory contact, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified."

The first monk, dissatisfied with the other monk's answer to his question, went to still another monk and, on arrival, said to him, "To what extent, my friend, is a monk's vision said to be well-purified?"

"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the five clinging-aggregates, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified."

The first monk, dissatisfied with this monk's answer to his question, went to still another monk and, on arrival, said to him, "To what extent, my friend, is a monk's vision said to be well-purified?"

"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the four great elements [earth, water, wind, & fire], my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified."

The first monk, dissatisfied with this monk's answer to his question, went to still another monk and, on arrival, said to him, "To what extent, my friend, is a monk's vision said to be well-purified?"

"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, that whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified."

The first monk, dissatisfied with this monk's answer to his question, then went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he [reported to the Blessed One his conversations with the other monks. The Blessed One then said:]

"Monk, it's as if there were a man who had never seen a riddle tree.[1] He would go to another man who had seen one and, on arrival, would say to him, 'What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?"

"The other would say, 'A riddle tree is black, my good man, like a burnt stump.' For at the time he saw it, that's what the riddle tree was like.

"Then the first man, dissatisfied with the other man's answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, 'What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?'

"The other would say, 'A riddle tree is red, my good man, like a lump of meat.' For at the time he saw it, that's what the riddle tree was like.

"Then the first man, dissatisfied with this man's answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, 'What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?'

"The other would say, 'A riddle tree is stripped of its bark, my good man, and has burst pods, like an acacia tree.' For at the time he saw it, that's what the riddle tree was like.

"Then the first man, dissatisfied with this man's answer, went to still another man who had seen a riddle tree and, on arrival, said to him, 'What, my good man, is a riddle tree like?'

"The other would say, 'A riddle tree has thick foliage, my good man, and gives a dense shade, like a banyan.' For at the time he saw it, that's what the riddle tree was like.

"In the same way, monk, however those intelligent men of integrity were focused when their vision became well purified is the way in which they answered.

"Suppose, monk, that there were a royal frontier fortress with strong walls & ramparts and six gates. In it would be a wise, experienced, intelligent gatekeeper to keep out those he didn't know and to let in those he did. A swift pair of messengers, coming from the east, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come. Then a swift pair of messengers, coming from the west... the north... the south, would say to the gatekeeper, 'Where, my good man, is the commander of this fortress?' He would say, 'There he is, sirs, sitting in the central square.' The swift pair of messengers, delivering their accurate report to the commander of the fortress, would then go back by the route by which they had come.

"I have given you this simile, monk, to convey a message. The message is this: The fortress stands for this body — composed of four elements, born of mother & father, nourished with rice & barley gruel, subject to constant rubbing & abrasion, to breaking & falling apart. The six gates stand for the six internal sense media. The gatekeeper stands for mindfulness. The swift pair of messengers stands for tranquillity (samatha) and insight (vipassana). The commander of the fortress stands for consciousness. The central square stands for the four great elements: the earth-property, the liquid-property, the fire-property, & the wind-property. The accurate report stands for Unbinding (nibbana). The route by which they had come stands for the noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:17 am

Gilana Sutta: Sick
(Citta the Householder's Last Hours)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998–2011
Alternate translation: Walshe

On that occasion Citta the householder was diseased, in pain, severely ill. Then a large number of garden devas, forest devas, tree devas, and devas inhabiting herbs, grasses, & forest giants assembled and said to him: "Make a wish, householder: 'In the future, may I become a king, a wheel-turning monarch!'"

When this was said, Citta the householder said to the garden devas, forest devas, tree devas, and devas inhabiting herbs, grasses, & forest giants: "Even that is inconstant; even that is impermanent; one must abandon even that when one passes on."

When this was said, Citta the householder's friends & companions, relatives and kinsmen, said to him: "Steady your mindfulness, master. Don't ramble."

"What did I say that you say to me: 'Steady your mindfulness, master. Don't ramble'?"

"You said: 'Even that is inconstant; even that is impermanent; one must abandon even that when one passes on.'"

"That was because garden devas, forest devas, tree devas, and devas inhabiting herbs, grasses, & forest giants have assembled and said to me: 'Make a wish, householder: "In the future, may I become a king, a wheel-turning monarch!"' And I said to them: 'Even that is inconstant; even that is impermanent; one must abandon even that when one passes on.'"

"But what compelling reason do those garden devas, forest devas, tree devas, and devas inhabiting herbs, grasses, & forest giants see, master, that they say to you, 'Make a wish, householder: "In the future, may I become a king, a wheel-turning monarch!"'?"

"It occurs to them: 'This Citta the householder is virtuous, of admirable character. If he should wish: "In the future, may I become a king, a wheel-turning monarch!" — then, as he is virtuous, this wish of his would succeed because of the purity of his virtue. A righteous one, he will wield righteous power.'[1] Seeing this compelling reason, they assembled and said: 'Make a wish, householder: "In the future, may I become a king, a wheel-turning monarch!"' And I said to them: 'Even that is inconstant; even that is impermanent; one must abandon even that when one passes on.'"

"Then, master, instruct us, too."

"Then you should train yourselves: 'We will be endowed with verified confidence in the Buddha: "Indeed, the Blessed One [the Buddha] is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the cosmos, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed." "'We will be endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: "The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the wise for themselves."

"'We will be possessed of verified confidence in the Sangha: "The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully — in other words, the four types [of noble disciples] when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world."

"'Whatever there may be in our family that can be given away, all that will be shared unstintingly with virtuous ones who are of admirable character.' That's how you should train yourselves."

Then, having enjoined his friends & colleagues, his relatives & kinsmen, to place confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, & Sangha; having exhorted them to undertake generosity, Citta the householder passed away.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

Individual
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Individual » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:07 pm

I say this is an imponderable... but here's an odd thought... :stirthepot:

In the Aggañña sutta, devas adopted grosser forms. After adopting a gross form, they couldn't just go back to being luminous devas. It involves work -- mindfulness and morality.

And it's been said that devas can inhabit plant-life.

Well, if a gandhabba descends into the womb to take the form of a human, why is that called "rebirth" but when other devas adopt the form of a plant, it is called "inhabiting"? Do these plant-inhabiting devas come and go as they please (in plants already born), or do they enter in a similar manner that gandhabbas do (entering at conception)? If I trim a deva-inhabited plant, does the deva still inhabit the stems and leaves I remove, or only the main part? For plants which can reproduce asexually, if you divide one plant into two, four, eight, sixteen, etc., an infinite number, does the deva inhabit them all? When and how could they leave?

Is there something separate inside the plant (certainly not a self!) which makes it worthy of being called inhabiting rather than rebirth? Yet if it is intentional action with result, couldn't it still be called rebirth? Do devas that inhabit plants retain any special abilities? If not, why shouldn't it be called rebirth and if so, can't plant-inhabiting devas fend for themselves and leave the plants upon sensing imminent danger?

And if devas inhabit these plants, what would be the difference between a plant that is inhabited as opposed to a plant that is not inhabited? Could deva-inhabited plants walk and talk, like the Ents of Tolkien novels? Would deva-inhabited plants feel pain but other plants wouldn't? Without having different material faculties, on what basis is there a difference in feeling?

A very smart person could definitely probe this thing and I do think it's interesting... It's not necessarily enough to just dogmatically assert, "This is what the Buddha taught," without providing any basis. You don't admit you don't know. You don't answer the question. Because the details aren't in the suttas -- what's there is just to help you end suffering, not to know everything about everything. You quote the Buddha, but because of the Simsapa Sutta, you don't know if there are actually complexities about rebirth in which one might see plants in a different way... It's just that such discussion and investigation is not conducive to liberation, to the end of suffering. Because if you consider plants living beings, you can't eat. And if you can't eat, you can't practice dhamma. I wouldn't see it as being more complicated than that. And I see no reason to pick and choose between honoring the original teachings of the Buddha and honoring the reasonable investigation of people today. I'd honor both and denigrate neither. :)
The best things in life aren't things.


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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 18, 2011 12:33 am

Dear Individual,

thanks for your post, it could be reason why there is no clear statement that to do not harm beings, better look is it has sentiments or not. So what if we eat fruits (without destroying the seed) drinking milk and eat a lot of cheese?
I guess it is better to be just not involved and except alms or the normal way of live.

Regarding the devas: As people take everything from the nature, one day it might be so normal and it grows to a taking without respect. So maybe the devas are just protector and maybe only in a literary way. So today I guess it is good to point at live and its close connection to all other live in a scientist way.

It is just a side story, but we had/have always a lot of with people making business in cutting wood. There are really made illnesses. I also never had seen somebody "obsessed" before. Well there are many thinks which looks strange and miraculous but in fact they are not. Sometimes they grow into superstition, sometimes they are lost in rational thinking. Its always a search for the middle and I guess it is also good to do not disagree with thinks we can not see because our kind of living does not train to look for fine substantial phenomenas. It is more the: "What nonsense, that do not exist." from childhood, that destroys such kind of sense, like seeing aura what plants also have. As I was told.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:04 am

Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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budo
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Re: Plant Life

Postby budo » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:50 am

To answer Individual's question about inhibition vs birth,

Perhaps because plants are not born? Do plants have sex? Are there female and male plants? Perhaps this is why in Noah's arc, as Ron brought up earlier, God did not mention plants. Perhaps because they are not born, they are not considered sentient. If plants are born, at what point are they no longer a seed but a plant? As for humans, at one point in the womb does the spermed egg become sentient? When the brain forms? Where is the brain of the plant? When does it form? If a human birth fails before the brain is developed, is it still death because the human was yet to be born? If sentient means consciousness does that mean humans die if they become brain-dead or a vegetable state, but their bodies are still alive? At one point is one considered born and at one point is one considered dead? If in the future one is able to replace their whole bodies but keep the brain, are they a different person or the same person?

Ron can you answer any of those questions?
Energy flows where attention goes

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:26 am

Budo,

is that serious. In german language one says, when explaining sex to children or with people who are shy to talk about "Lets start with flower's and bee's"

So lets start with it :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_sexuality

What makes you believe that mind is located in the part that is called brain? There is body and mind.
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_


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