Debts

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
PeterB
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Re: Debts

Post by PeterB »

Thirded...well said.
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Annapurna
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Re: Debts

Post by Annapurna »

Goofaholix wrote:
octathlon wrote:Just now reading this thread, which seems to have become a discussion on whether the requirement of paying off debts before ordination is good or bad. Well, the reasons for the rule are good ones, as has been pointed out. Looking at this from a Buddhist perspective, I would say that even if you could declare bankruptcy and then ordain, what would your chances of success be?

Striving to pay off the debt in order to be able to ordain would show dedication, right intention and right effort. If for whatever reasons, it is not possible to pay off the debts in this lifetime, then perhaps readiness for ordination is not the case in this lifetime. On the other hand, once the right intention and effort is sincerely applied, who knows what positive fruits this may bear, perhaps even allowing the debt to be paid off after all. But the point is not to try and get out of paying it, but that wholesome actions are taken even if the goal can't be reached, rather than choosing unwholesome actions hoping to reach a wholesome goal.
Very well said.

If you don't have a clear concience when you ordain then you can hardly expect the fruits of the holy life,
Then someone who killed can not ordain?
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cooran
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Re: Debts

Post by cooran »

Not unless you are someone as fortunate as Angulimala who met the Buddha.
A one-of-a-kind decision was made by the Buddha to ordain him.

Otherwise, the rule is:
...anyone wishing to become a bhikkhu must fulfill certain conditions about which he will be questioned during the actual ordination procedure. The candidate must be male and at least twenty years old. He must never have committed any grievous crimes and, if previously ordained, he must not have been guilty of any Defeater (Paaraajika) offences or have entered some other religion without disrobing first. (See BMC pp.88-89) He should also be of good reputation; fit and healthy enough to carry out the duties of a bhikkhu; not in debt; not subject to government service; and have permission from parents or guardian.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#bhikkhu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Annapurna
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Re: Debts

Post by Annapurna »

What is meant by "permission of parents"?

If someone is above 21, does he still need it?
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cooran
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Re: Debts

Post by cooran »

Depends on the Tradition:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 31&p=94711" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Annapurna
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Re: Debts

Post by Annapurna »

:anjali:
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Alex123
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Re: Debts

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Cooran, all,
cooran wrote:Not unless you are someone as fortunate as Angulimala who met the Buddha. A one-of-a-kind decision was made by the Buddha to ordain him.
with metta
Chris
Angulimala killed 999 people, not just one. Sure, he met the Buddha (an extraordinary event), and despite his murder spree, had many positive qualities himself that allowed him to become Arhat. But none of us have killed even 1 person, let alone 999.

Incurring monetary debt as result of outside forces (such as bad economy, bad partners, and general worldly requirements such as university, mortgages, debts inherited from someone else, etc) imho is much less than killing even 1 person, nothing to say about killing 999.

It seems that western society is built in such a way that it gives us a lot of debt.

But murder is different. Sure we may not have such good qualities as Angulimala had, and we didn't meet the Buddha in this life. But we didn't kill one, let alone 999 people
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Annapurna
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Re: Debts

Post by Annapurna »

Alex123 wrote: But none of us have killed even 1 person, let alone 999.....we didn't kill one, let alone 999 people
How would you know if anybody in this forum has or hasn't killed before?

You are assuming.
Incurring monetary debt as result of outside forces (such as... debts inherited from someone else, etc) imho is much less than killing even 1 person, nothing to say about killing 999.


I will be happy to say it again that nobody has to inherit debt


>>>Inheriting debt
ashtanga
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Re: Debts

Post by ashtanga »

...sorry I started this thread but it does seem to have become popular...funny that. If its was as definitive an answer as some seem to think on here why so much discussion. Someone mentioned that it might not be the right time to ordain if debts cannot be paid off and to wait for another incarnation...am in a Buddhist forum here or on a hill in Glastonbury surrounded by smoke...WHAT?

I am honestly shocked at the some of the contents in this thread... It might as well be the other way round and you can't ordain UNLESS you have tonnes of money...ridiculous to assume that if its demontrable that a debt cannot be paid off then writing ot off is an option. Now, for those who say 'where did it go'... ask yourself this...WHERE DID IT COME FROM'...?

Anwyay, I'm not going to contribute anymore to this thread as its just winding me up .... rather meditate.

Have fun!

:clap:
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andre9999
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Re: Debts

Post by andre9999 »

ashtanga wrote:Now, for those who say 'where did it go'... ask yourself this...WHERE DID IT COME FROM'...?
Why are you asking us? It's your debt.
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octathlon
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Re: Debts

Post by octathlon »

ashtanga wrote: Someone mentioned that it might not be the right time to ordain if debts cannot be paid off and to wait for another incarnation...am in a Buddhist forum here or on a hill in Glastonbury surrounded by smoke...WHAT?
Just to be clear, I did say the first part but I never said "wait for another incarnation". It's a silly idea to "wait for another incarnation" do to anything. All we have is now. We should follow the N8P right now.
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Alex123
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Re: Debts

Post by Alex123 »

To ordain just to escape debt is wrong. But one doesn't have to ordain to escape unsecured debt. One can write-it-off by bankruptcy.

But to ordain in order to live holy life to the perfection, that is really good. To hold person away from such, is very wrong, IMHO.

Modern life almost requires that one accumulates debt, and it is almost impossible to be without debt in the modern western world. In the economic downturn, it is too easy to have debt above what can be paid in reasonable time. Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.


Being in debt is not itself a disqualifier. Just how much debt was Angulimala in? He killed 999 people! The monetary, and most importantly other kind of debt, was really big. He ordained and become an Arahant. It would be terrible if he didn't ordain, (in order to pay off debt and make up to the victim's families), and remain a worldling...
shjohnk
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Re: Debts

Post by shjohnk »

Alex123 wrote:To ordain just to escape debt is wrong. But one doesn't have to ordain to escape unsecured debt. One can write-it-off by bankruptcy.

But to ordain in order to live holy life to the perfection, that is really good. To hold person away from such, is very wrong, IMHO.

Modern life almost requires that one accumulates debt, and it is almost impossible to be without debt in the modern western world. In the economic downturn, it is too easy to have debt above what can be paid in reasonable time. Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.


Being in debt is not itself a disqualifier. Just how much debt was Angulimala in? He killed 999 people! The monetary, and most importantly other kind of debt, was really big. He ordained and become an Arahant. It would be terrible if he didn't ordain, (in order to pay off debt and make up to the victim's families), and remain a worldling...
:goodpost:
rowyourboat
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Re: Debts

Post by rowyourboat »

Sila should be abandoned, if it is a hindrance to developing samadhi. Samadhi should be abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to developing panna. None of these practices, however wholesome in themselves, should not become ends in themselves, blocking further progress.

Please see the 'Relay of chariots' sutta.

With metta
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
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kirk5a
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Re: Debts

Post by kirk5a »

Alex123 wrote: Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.
Right on!
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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