Debts

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:19 am

:anjali:
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Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:21 pm

Hello Cooran, all,

cooran wrote:Not unless you are someone as fortunate as Angulimala who met the Buddha. A one-of-a-kind decision was made by the Buddha to ordain him.
with metta
Chris


Angulimala killed 999 people, not just one. Sure, he met the Buddha (an extraordinary event), and despite his murder spree, had many positive qualities himself that allowed him to become Arhat. But none of us have killed even 1 person, let alone 999.

Incurring monetary debt as result of outside forces (such as bad economy, bad partners, and general worldly requirements such as university, mortgages, debts inherited from someone else, etc) imho is much less than killing even 1 person, nothing to say about killing 999.

It seems that western society is built in such a way that it gives us a lot of debt.

But murder is different. Sure we may not have such good qualities as Angulimala had, and we didn't meet the Buddha in this life. But we didn't kill one, let alone 999 people
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Re: Debts

Postby Annapurna » Sun Jan 16, 2011 5:39 pm

Alex123 wrote: But none of us have killed even 1 person, let alone 999.....we didn't kill one, let alone 999 people


How would you know if anybody in this forum has or hasn't killed before?

You are assuming.

Incurring monetary debt as result of outside forces (such as... debts inherited from someone else, etc) imho is much less than killing even 1 person, nothing to say about killing 999.


I will be happy to say it again that nobody has to inherit debt


>>>Inheriting debt
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Re: Debts

Postby ashtanga » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:51 pm

...sorry I started this thread but it does seem to have become popular...funny that. If its was as definitive an answer as some seem to think on here why so much discussion. Someone mentioned that it might not be the right time to ordain if debts cannot be paid off and to wait for another incarnation...am in a Buddhist forum here or on a hill in Glastonbury surrounded by smoke...WHAT?

I am honestly shocked at the some of the contents in this thread... It might as well be the other way round and you can't ordain UNLESS you have tonnes of money...ridiculous to assume that if its demontrable that a debt cannot be paid off then writing ot off is an option. Now, for those who say 'where did it go'... ask yourself this...WHERE DID IT COME FROM'...?

Anwyay, I'm not going to contribute anymore to this thread as its just winding me up .... rather meditate.

Have fun!

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Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:31 pm

ashtanga wrote:Now, for those who say 'where did it go'... ask yourself this...WHERE DID IT COME FROM'...?


Why are you asking us? It's your debt.
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Re: Debts

Postby octathlon » Mon Jan 17, 2011 6:37 pm

ashtanga wrote: Someone mentioned that it might not be the right time to ordain if debts cannot be paid off and to wait for another incarnation...am in a Buddhist forum here or on a hill in Glastonbury surrounded by smoke...WHAT?

Just to be clear, I did say the first part but I never said "wait for another incarnation". It's a silly idea to "wait for another incarnation" do to anything. All we have is now. We should follow the N8P right now.
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Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 1:18 am

To ordain just to escape debt is wrong. But one doesn't have to ordain to escape unsecured debt. One can write-it-off by bankruptcy.

But to ordain in order to live holy life to the perfection, that is really good. To hold person away from such, is very wrong, IMHO.

Modern life almost requires that one accumulates debt, and it is almost impossible to be without debt in the modern western world. In the economic downturn, it is too easy to have debt above what can be paid in reasonable time. Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.


Being in debt is not itself a disqualifier. Just how much debt was Angulimala in? He killed 999 people! The monetary, and most importantly other kind of debt, was really big. He ordained and become an Arahant. It would be terrible if he didn't ordain, (in order to pay off debt and make up to the victim's families), and remain a worldling...
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Re: Debts

Postby shjohnk » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:51 am

Alex123 wrote:To ordain just to escape debt is wrong. But one doesn't have to ordain to escape unsecured debt. One can write-it-off by bankruptcy.

But to ordain in order to live holy life to the perfection, that is really good. To hold person away from such, is very wrong, IMHO.

Modern life almost requires that one accumulates debt, and it is almost impossible to be without debt in the modern western world. In the economic downturn, it is too easy to have debt above what can be paid in reasonable time. Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.


Being in debt is not itself a disqualifier. Just how much debt was Angulimala in? He killed 999 people! The monetary, and most importantly other kind of debt, was really big. He ordained and become an Arahant. It would be terrible if he didn't ordain, (in order to pay off debt and make up to the victim's families), and remain a worldling...


:goodpost:
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Re: Debts

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:55 pm

Sila should be abandoned, if it is a hindrance to developing samadhi. Samadhi should be abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to developing panna. None of these practices, however wholesome in themselves, should not become ends in themselves, blocking further progress.

Please see the 'Relay of chariots' sutta.

With metta
With Metta

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& Upekkha
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Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:11 pm

Alex123 wrote: Death can come at any moment and IMHO the holy life is far more important than giving some fat cats bigger electronic numbers.

Right on!
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:16 pm

rowyourboat wrote:Sila should be abandoned, if it is a hindrance to developing samadhi. Samadhi should be abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to developing panna. None of these practices, however wholesome in themselves, should not become ends in themselves, blocking further progress.

Please see the 'Relay of chariots' sutta.

With metta

Crazy wisdom! (just kidding. I think this is a really interesting point)
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:26 pm

We can agree and applaud all we like. However when push comes to shove its Ashtangas ( in this case ) preceptor that will decide, and they traditionally take a conservative view. They may even (horrors ) not regard the views put forward on this forum ! :o

If someone in Ashtangas present position gets ordained in a mainstream Theravadin Sangha I will download and eat this page.
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Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:40 pm

PeterB wrote:We can agree and applaud all we like. However when push comes to shove its Ashtangas ( in this case ) preceptor that will decide, and they traditionally take a conservative view. They may even (horrors ) not regard the views put forward on this forum ! :o

If someone in Ashtangas present position gets ordained in a mainstream Theravadin Sangha I will download and eat this page.

You're right the preceptor will decide, of course. But maybe print out this page just in case. :smile: But actually we aren't talking about someone in Ashtangas present position, but a position after debts have been canceled through bankruptcy.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:52 pm

Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.
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Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:01 pm

PeterB wrote:Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.

K. Are you a bankruptcy lawyer that you can make these claims? I just observed a friend, in detail, go through Chapter 7 bankruptcy (this is US). The dischargeable debt was wiped out. Gone. Government student loans in the US though, are not dischargeable. Chapter 13 involves a repayment plan.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:42 pm

Phra Chuntawongso wrote:Reading the OP again it is clear to me that Ashtanga is not bankrupt.There are debts that seemingly will take a heck of a long time(at the very least)to pay off.While I am always happy to see people wishing to ordain,unfortunatly I don't see this idea of a voluntary bankrupcy as being the best solution.People are going to be hurt by this action,and I am sure that this is not what anyone here would like to see.
Perhaps there is some way to increase your earnings,therefore getting out of debt faster.In the mean time just keep up your practice.You don't need to ordain to attain enlightenment.
Hopefully some one might come up with some ideas about making some extra dosh.
I wish you all the best.
With metta.

Here is a view from one who is a present member of the Bhkkhu Sangha.
In another thread Ashtanga says that he is attending a Vipassana retreat in Goenkas UK centre...which suggests that he does not live in the US.
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Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:16 pm

PeterB wrote:Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.


In Canada and US, almost ALL unsecured debt is written-off. As I've heard, in US one can bankrupt a corporation and not owe a cent. So no debt if one goes bankrupt.

As for other things, one can foreclose the property and declare a bankruptcy (to stop all legal action). Mortgage is called mortgage for a reason. It takes 20-35 or more years to pay it off, and one can die long before that. Is this what the life should be lived for? To pay off the mortgage or other debts?


When one ordains, one will lose it all anyways.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:30 pm

PeterB wrote:
Phra Chuntawongso wrote:Reading the OP again it is clear to me that Ashtanga is not bankrupt.There are debts that seemingly will take a heck of a long time(at the very least)to pay off.While I am always happy to see people wishing to ordain,unfortunatly I don't see this idea of a voluntary bankrupcy as being the best solution.People are going to be hurt by this action,and I am sure that this is not what anyone here would like to see.
Perhaps there is some way to increase your earnings,therefore getting out of debt faster.In the mean time just keep up your practice.You don't need to ordain to attain enlightenment.
Hopefully some one might come up with some ideas about making some extra dosh.
I wish you all the best.
With metta.

Here is a view from one who is a present member of the Bhkkhu Sangha.
In another thread Ashtanga says that he is attending a Vipassana retreat in Goenkas UK centre...which suggests that he does not live in the US.

Bump.......... second sentence.
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Re: Debts

Postby farmer » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:33 pm

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?"

"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward."


Perhaps the OP should ask what effect bankruptcy would have on his practice. Would he be burdened by remorse? Guidance from a wise friend could be very helpful, since it is easy to be deluded about this sort of thing.
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Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:38 pm

This thread really has run its course. Alex, you've made your point.
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