Debts

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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kirk5a
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Re: Debts

Post by kirk5a »

rowyourboat wrote:Sila should be abandoned, if it is a hindrance to developing samadhi. Samadhi should be abandoned if it becomes a hindrance to developing panna. None of these practices, however wholesome in themselves, should not become ends in themselves, blocking further progress.

Please see the 'Relay of chariots' sutta.

With metta
Crazy wisdom! (just kidding. I think this is a really interesting point)
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
PeterB
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Re: Debts

Post by PeterB »

We can agree and applaud all we like. However when push comes to shove its Ashtangas ( in this case ) preceptor that will decide, and they traditionally take a conservative view. They may even (horrors ) not regard the views put forward on this forum ! :o

If someone in Ashtangas present position gets ordained in a mainstream Theravadin Sangha I will download and eat this page.
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kirk5a
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Re: Debts

Post by kirk5a »

PeterB wrote:We can agree and applaud all we like. However when push comes to shove its Ashtangas ( in this case ) preceptor that will decide, and they traditionally take a conservative view. They may even (horrors ) not regard the views put forward on this forum ! :o

If someone in Ashtangas present position gets ordained in a mainstream Theravadin Sangha I will download and eat this page.
You're right the preceptor will decide, of course. But maybe print out this page just in case. :smile: But actually we aren't talking about someone in Ashtangas present position, but a position after debts have been canceled through bankruptcy.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
PeterB
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Re: Debts

Post by PeterB »

Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.
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kirk5a
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Re: Debts

Post by kirk5a »

PeterB wrote:Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.
K. Are you a bankruptcy lawyer that you can make these claims? I just observed a friend, in detail, go through Chapter 7 bankruptcy (this is US). The dischargeable debt was wiped out. Gone. Government student loans in the US though, are not dischargeable. Chapter 13 involves a repayment plan.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
PeterB
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Re: Debts

Post by PeterB »

Phra Chuntawongso wrote:Reading the OP again it is clear to me that Ashtanga is not bankrupt.There are debts that seemingly will take a heck of a long time(at the very least)to pay off.While I am always happy to see people wishing to ordain,unfortunatly I don't see this idea of a voluntary bankrupcy as being the best solution.People are going to be hurt by this action,and I am sure that this is not what anyone here would like to see.
Perhaps there is some way to increase your earnings,therefore getting out of debt faster.In the mean time just keep up your practice.You don't need to ordain to attain enlightenment.
Hopefully some one might come up with some ideas about making some extra dosh.
I wish you all the best.
With metta.
Here is a view from one who is a present member of the Bhkkhu Sangha.
In another thread Ashtanga says that he is attending a Vipassana retreat in Goenkas UK centre...which suggests that he does not live in the US.
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Alex123
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Re: Debts

Post by Alex123 »

PeterB wrote:Debt is hardly ever cancelled by bankruptcy. Almost always an accomodation is reached wherewith debt is eventually discharged..That is the point of bankruptcy.
In Canada and US, almost ALL unsecured debt is written-off. As I've heard, in US one can bankrupt a corporation and not owe a cent. So no debt if one goes bankrupt.

As for other things, one can foreclose the property and declare a bankruptcy (to stop all legal action). Mortgage is called mortgage for a reason. It takes 20-35 or more years to pay it off, and one can die long before that. Is this what the life should be lived for? To pay off the mortgage or other debts?


When one ordains, one will lose it all anyways.
PeterB
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Re: Debts

Post by PeterB »

PeterB wrote:
Phra Chuntawongso wrote:Reading the OP again it is clear to me that Ashtanga is not bankrupt.There are debts that seemingly will take a heck of a long time(at the very least)to pay off.While I am always happy to see people wishing to ordain,unfortunatly I don't see this idea of a voluntary bankrupcy as being the best solution.People are going to be hurt by this action,and I am sure that this is not what anyone here would like to see.
Perhaps there is some way to increase your earnings,therefore getting out of debt faster.In the mean time just keep up your practice.You don't need to ordain to attain enlightenment.
Hopefully some one might come up with some ideas about making some extra dosh.
I wish you all the best.
With metta.
Here is a view from one who is a present member of the Bhkkhu Sangha.
In another thread Ashtanga says that he is attending a Vipassana retreat in Goenkas UK centre...which suggests that he does not live in the US.
Bump.......... second sentence.
farmer
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Re: Debts

Post by farmer »

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?"

"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward."
Perhaps the OP should ask what effect bankruptcy would have on his practice. Would he be burdened by remorse? Guidance from a wise friend could be very helpful, since it is easy to be deluded about this sort of thing.
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andre9999
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Re: Debts

Post by andre9999 »

This thread really has run its course. Alex, you've made your point.
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Alex123
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Re: Debts

Post by Alex123 »

farmer wrote: Perhaps the OP should ask what effect bankruptcy would have on his practice.
write off debts and allow to ordain to lead a holy life. Angulimala killed 999 people, which is much wrong than bankruptcy IMHO.
Would he be burdened by remorse? Guidance from a wise friend could be very helpful, since it is easy to be deluded about this sort of thing.
For big banks, few million$ (or $100K) dollars is almost peanuts. No hurt here. Poor economy can bankrupt even a good business, and it is not the business owner's fault that economy tanked in 2008 caused the business to go seriously into debt.


As I grow older, I understand more and more that it is hard to live really idealistic life in this material world. It is eat or be eaten. The law of the jungle. Its just how samsara works. Remorse is weakness and will allow others to tramp over you, materially at least. If one is nice, then others will walk over you. "You are nice, so you obliged to me. Aren't you? Your a good guy, right? If so, be a good guy and give me...."


This is one of the reasons why monk's life is so much better. You don't need to do most of worldly stuff. The worldly life is almost a trap. They make you take as much debt on you as possible, so you would pay off accrued interest and principle for the rest of your life to feed fat cats. What's so good about it?

It is almost impossible not to be in debt, even if this debt is "only" a mortgage with interest, of course.
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Alex123
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Re: Debts

Post by Alex123 »

farmer wrote:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?"

"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward."
Perhaps the OP should ask what effect bankruptcy would have on his practice. Would he be burdened by remorse? Guidance from a wise friend could be very helpful, since it is easy to be deluded about this sort of thing.
One may have a lot of remorse if one doesn't ordain, so that one would pay off one's debts. Now that could bring a lot of remorse and regret! Life shouldn't be lived to pay money to others in place of holy life of a monk.
farmer
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Re: Debts

Post by farmer »

One may have a lot of remorse if one doesn't ordain
Quite true. My post wasn't intended to come down on one side or the other of the OP's dilemma, only to suggest a framework in which to consider the question.
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appicchato
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Re: Debts

Post by appicchato »

If one is able to legally, repeat, legally, absolve one's self of monetary obligation, which seems to be possible (through bankruptcy, or other channels, and IS done everyday somewhere), where's the problem?...one might say perseverance in finding that (or a) channel is the order of the day...it really is a jungle...
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cooran
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Re: Debts

Post by cooran »

Hello Ven. Appicchato,

I understand that the OP is covered by the laws of England.

''When my bankruptcy ends will I be free of all my debts?

NOTE: If you have serious problems with debt and are considering bankruptcy, it is important that you seek professional advice before doing so.

When you are discharged from bankruptcy, you will be released from most, but not all, of your debts. For those debts that are wiped clean, creditors will no longer be able to pursue you for any outstanding amounts.

Debts that you will not be released from are:
1. any money you owe under court proceedings - for example for child maintenance or debts arising from any personal injury claims against you - unless the court directs otherwise

2. court fines or debts arising from fraud and certain other crimes

3. student loans

4. mortgage payments and other secured loans - secured creditors still have the right to enforce or recover their security if payments are not met

5. debts that you have incurred after your bankruptcy order was made

If you are making payments under an income payments order or another agreement you must also continue to make these payments even after you are discharged.

It's also important to note that when you are discharged, any assets that the official receiver or the trustee held or claimed during your bankruptcy are not returned to you.

Your trustee will still have title to your assets and will seek to sell them in a bid to pay back as much as possible to your creditors even after your 12 months as a bankrupt are up. And this could take several years. During this time you may be required to make payments from your earnings to your trustee.

Your most important asset is likely to be your home, or your share of it if it is jointly owned. If it has not been sold within three years of you being declared bankrupt, it will be returned to you unless your trustee has applied for an order to prevent it being returned.''
http://www.bankrupt.co.uk/Bankruptcy-Debts.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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