All compounded phenomena are suffering??

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:33 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:In this section the well-instructed disciple is described as becoming disenchanted and dispassionate with the aggregates, then fully released. Doesn't this suggest a cessation of clinging to the aggregates? In other words dukkha arises with clinging to the aggregates and ceases with the cessation of that clinging?

Spiny

Mental dukkha ceases right there, physical dukkha ceases at parinibbana. What is inconstant does not stop being inconstant just because we don't cling to it.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:46 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:In this section the well-instructed disciple is described as becoming disenchanted and dispassionate with the aggregates, then fully released. Doesn't this suggest a cessation of clinging to the aggregates? In other words dukkha arises with clinging to the aggregates and ceases with the cessation of that clinging?

Spiny

Mental dukkha ceases right there, physical dukkha ceases at parinibbana. What is inconstant does not stop being inconstant just because we don't cling to it.


That's right, Kirk. Remember, that dukkha is 'to be comprehended' - that is to say that we don't have insight into the suffering that impermanence brings, until we do some in-depth vipassana. This then, is erradicated at the point of release (vimutti) when the meditator becomes a stream entrant and experiences extinguishment (nibbana) of the highest order. That is to say, the meditator has the non- experience of the absolute cessation of all phenomena, and in that epitome of all emptiness comes to experience the complete cessation of all suffering, in this very life. (No wonder then that he/she has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha after that).

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby kirk5a » Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:21 pm

rowyourboat wrote:
That's right, Kirk. Remember, that dukkha is 'to be comprehended' - that is to say that we don't have insight into the suffering that impermanence brings, until we do some in-depth vipassana. This then, is erradicated at the point of release (vimutti) when the meditator becomes a stream entrant and experiences extinguishment (nibbana) of the highest order. That is to say, the meditator has the non- experience of the absolute cessation of all phenomena, and in that epitome of all emptiness comes to experience the complete cessation of all suffering, in this very life. (No wonder then that he/she has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha after that).

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Matheesha

Hi Matheesha, thanks for that. So to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that stream entry requires the "non-experience" where absolutely all phenomena cease to appear? And if so, then, for one doing "in-depth vipassana" what would you say allows for the transition from focusing on impermanent phenomena, to the cessation of all phenomena?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:01 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:In this section the well-instructed disciple is described as becoming disenchanted and dispassionate with the aggregates, then fully released. Doesn't this suggest a cessation of clinging to the aggregates? In other words dukkha arises with clinging to the aggregates and ceases with the cessation of that clinging?

Spiny

What is inconstant does not stop being inconstant just because we don't cling to it.


Agreed, but is it not the case that dukkha arises because we don't have insight into that inconstancy, and therefore we cling to the aggregates?

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:51 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Agreed, but is it not the case that dukkha arises because we don't have insight into that inconstancy, and therefore we cling to the aggregates?

Spiny

Yes, that is the arising of mental dukkha. Taking what is inconstant to be constant. But if we break an arm, that physical dukkha isn't because of that misperception, it's just the basic physical reaction of the body to injury. Then we can compound that suffering with aversion. As long as there's a body there will be physical dukkha no matter how awakened we get. That's what I'm seeing in the suttas.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:59 pm

kirk5a wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:Agreed, but is it not the case that dukkha arises because we don't have insight into that inconstancy, and therefore we cling to the aggregates?

Spiny

Yes, that is the arising of mental dukkha. Taking what is inconstant to be constant. But if we break an arm, that physical dukkha isn't because of that misperception, it's just the basic physical reaction of the body to injury. Then we can compound that suffering with aversion. As long as there's a body there will be physical dukkha no matter how awakened we get. That's what I'm seeing in the suttas.




There is physical pain but if there is wisdom based contact, there is no dukkha of the mind and the physical sensation is seen just as it is


If this happens, where is the problem? Painful Physical sensation is just a different sensation to Pleasurable
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:30 pm

clw_uk wrote:

There is physical pain but if there is wisdom based contact, there is no dukkha of the mind and the physical sensation is seen just as it is


If this happens, where is the problem? Painful Physical sensation is just a different sensation to Pleasurable

"Problems" are mental creations. So, no problem. But physical sensations of all kinds are still that which the Buddha sought an ultimate end to - parinibbana.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:52 pm

kirk5a wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

There is physical pain but if there is wisdom based contact, there is no dukkha of the mind and the physical sensation is seen just as it is


If this happens, where is the problem? Painful Physical sensation is just a different sensation to Pleasurable

"Problems" are mental creations. So, no problem. But physical sensations of all kinds are still that which the Buddha sought an ultimate end to - parinibbana.




If there is no problem then its not hard to bear

If there is no problem then its not really suffering, just a sensation. Its just called "painful, suffering" etc because of the wordly way to describe things, like when Buddha said "I am ..."
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:00 pm

clw_uk wrote:If there is no problem then its not hard to bear

Yeah... it still might be pretty difficult. I don't think having aggressive cancer is as ho-hum as just another sensation like the touch of a summer breeze.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:24 pm

kirk5a wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:
That's right, Kirk. Remember, that dukkha is 'to be comprehended' - that is to say that we don't have insight into the suffering that impermanence brings, until we do some in-depth vipassana. This then, is erradicated at the point of release (vimutti) when the meditator becomes a stream entrant and experiences extinguishment (nibbana) of the highest order. That is to say, the meditator has the non- experience of the absolute cessation of all phenomena, and in that epitome of all emptiness comes to experience the complete cessation of all suffering, in this very life. (No wonder then that he/she has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha after that).

With metta

Matheesha

Hi Matheesha, thanks for that. So to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that stream entry requires the "non-experience" where absolutely all phenomena cease to appear? And if so, then, for one doing "in-depth vipassana" what would you say allows for the transition from focusing on impermanent phenomena, to the cessation of all phenomena?


Yes, absolutely.

See the bit on 'Path knowledge' here:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... gress.html

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:08 pm

kirk5a wrote:
clw_uk wrote:If there is no problem then its not hard to bear

Yeah... it still might be pretty difficult. I don't think having aggressive cancer is as ho-hum as just another sensation like the touch of a summer breeze.




Depends on ones wisdom
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:09 am

Dear Members. Please note that this thread is the Classical Theravada Forum. Any discussion should be backed up by material from the Tipitika and/or Commentaries.

:focus:
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby Sacha G » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:02 am

Hi,
I suggest to remember the case of the arhats committing suicide (sorry I don't have the reference here) tends to prove that physical pain is suffering, even for the arhat.
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:45 am

rowyourboat wrote:Furthermore everything in existence falls into one of the five aggregates (or should I say can be classified under one..). Anything which is impermanent, is unsatisfactory and in turn is not self -so this includes all of the five aggregates.



I'm not sure.

1. In V. 278 of the Dhammapada we have "sabbe sankhara dukkha ti", which I believe translates as "all conditioned phenomena are unsatisfactory".

2. Then in SN 56.11 the practical scope of dukkha is enumerated: "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

I wonder if in (1) dukkha is being applied in a generic sense, while in (2) dukkha is being described in a "personal" sense, ie relating to the person specifically rather than all phenomena generally?

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby kirk5a » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:37 pm

clw_uk wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
clw_uk wrote:If there is no problem then its not hard to bear

Yeah... it still might be pretty difficult. I don't think having aggressive cancer is as ho-hum as just another sensation like the touch of a summer breeze.




Depends on ones wisdom

What about Angulimala? If it wasn't a difficult experience, why did the Buddha exhort him to "bear it"?

"Then with blood running from his injured head, with his bowl broken, and with his patchwork robe torn, the venerable Angulimala went to the Blessed One. The Blessed One saw him coming, and he told him: "Bear it, brahmana, bear it, brahmana! You have experienced here and now the ripening of kamma whose ripening you might have experienced in hell over many a year, many a century, many a millennium.""

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el312.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:07 pm

kirk5a wrote:What about Angulimala? If it wasn't a difficult experience, why did the Buddha exhort him to "bear it"?

"


Perhaps with panna this kind of dukkha can be borne?

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:39 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:Furthermore everything in existence falls into one of the five aggregates (or should I say can be classified under one..). Anything which is impermanent, is unsatisfactory and in turn is not self -so this includes all of the five aggregates.



I'm not sure.

1. In V. 278 of the Dhammapada we have "sabbe sankhara dukkha ti", which I believe translates as "all conditioned phenomena are unsatisfactory".

2. Then in SN 56.11 the practical scope of dukkha is enumerated: "Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."

I wonder if in (1) dukkha is being applied in a generic sense, while in (2) dukkha is being described in a "personal" sense, ie relating to the person specifically rather than all phenomena generally?

Spiny


Hi Spiny

You might want to read up around the 5 aggregates and see if they contain within them everything in samsara or not.

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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby kirk5a » Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:13 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
kirk5a wrote:What about Angulimala? If it wasn't a difficult experience, why did the Buddha exhort him to "bear it"?

"


Perhaps with panna this kind of dukkha can be borne?

Spiny

Angulimala was already an arahant at that point, according to the retelling I read. So he certainly had panna, and he did bear that dukkha.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: All compounded phenomena are suffering??

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:32 am

rowyourboat wrote:You might want to read up around the 5 aggregates and see if they contain within them everything in samsara or not.


Not a bad idea, as this is something I'm still not clear about. ;)

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