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Plants ~ Borderline Beings? - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel

Plants ~ Borderline Beings?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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retrofuturist
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Re: Plant Life

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:29 am

Greetings Hanzze,

It's obvious you wish to expand the scope of discussion well beyond "General Theravada" boundaries... would you like us to move this to the Dhammic Free For All, so you can speculate on the sentience of plantlife beyond what the Buddha and subsequent Theravada masters have said?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:39 am

Dear retrofuturist,

did we use to less sutta? Plants are a very important issue and that was also pointed out by Buddha. I do not understand your motivation, but it will have its cause. Suttas, from a traditional view are protected by monks. If you make them in that form available it is very important to make them understandable also from a scientist view. There is still a view that plants are a lower form of beings, what is causing our biggest problems on earth.
Theravada is about peace and not about an other victim. I would wish it will stay a very important General Theravada discussion. If it is a attachment to my person or my kind of argument, just tell it, I make my step back.

_/\_
with loving kindness
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Re: Plant Life

Postby Individual » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:42 am

The best things in life aren't things.


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retrofuturist
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Re: Plant Life

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:43 am

Greetings Hanzze,

What I'm saying is that if you and other people keep bringing in sources which are not of Theravada origin, or even blatantly contradict suttas, this topic ought to be moved to another sub-forum if you want those things to be legitimately included within the bounds of discussion.

For example, I'm referring to the resources brought forward earlier to dispute the one-facultied nature of plant-life, Wikipedia entries on plant sexuality, and so on.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Plant Life

Postby Individual » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:00 am

Moving it to DFFA seems like a good idea to me
The best things in life aren't things.


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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:55 am

Dear retrofuturist,

from my view of point modern man is not able to understand thinks like they have been told, as modern man don't know nature at all. So the only way to explain things is the way of scientist and there is no different in what the Buddha taught and "knowledge". Modern man has never lived with nature and knows plants from the flower-shop. He do not know that his laptop was nature before and he do not know where his food is coming from. Therefore I guess the only way to explain things is scientist, everything else is so far away and we know that Theravada is a big industrial engine in Building and "developing". It is real sad, but there is a lot of war in the name of the Dhamma. Even it is not seen as this. It is important to see the victims as it is important to point on collective illusion of a possible material way to solve our problem.
I know that it is a very new issue in the US and maybe also on other parts on the earth as this engine keeps a lot of stuff alive.

As to see it from a Vinaya view, it is not a good way to select and recite suttas for the explanation of Dhamma. Scientific views makes it better possible to explain while keeping it on a layman level. The general information/knowledge as the silas and the eightfold path are quite enough to walk on a better way. Modern man can not easy see the victims and to understand the precept of abstain from killing and harming of living things is easily overseen.

Man has a talent to find a back door and the concentration on the precepts is one of the first steps to come to the understanding that real practice is the only way out of suffering. If we keep it in that way that science is science an Theravada is Theravada then we uproot a very important resource to explain the meaning of not harming in a modern man thinking way. As for the teachers it is also very important to use this tool and not Devas as they have been respected in older times by anyone. Simply nobody today would take care of them, and also not as protector of plants.

The public use of Suttas also needs the public discussion with the tool of science and there is nothing to fear as there the technique of the Buddha and the technique of modern scientist is not different and reaching the same point. We can not make it undone to publish the suttas, it was decided more than 50 year ago and it is a big chance to bring it in the right position for our all well fair. The heart of the Dhamma is the Eightfold Path which is walkable for everyone as soon as he realize that suffering and its causes exist. Jumping between two ways will not bring us further, and that for a protection that is already gone.

Understanding kamma and cause and effect even on a low level will lead to the path. If there is something to believe between, or something that does not fix to our scientific education it keeps us on the wheel as we are searching always the "easy" way.

The time when man is able to see death and harming will soon be gone, there are less people who even had seen there near relatives dying and suffering. The dirt is managed, the wast water never seen. Understanding suffering just from TV?

There is a kind of fear that is kusala and a kind of fear that is unkusala. If we work on the unkusala fear also the other fear will disappear as it will be simply wisdom without any feelings.

A Bhikkhu keeping the vinaya in its whole is not easy able to explain and teach in a way that it is acceptable and understandable. Many may also not have the scientist background so it is more that a kusala deed to make some thinks clear from layman to make the real teaching hear and understandable.

I know my lack of communication, therefore I wish that the meaning will be seen from those who can explain. The sutta battle is not really mine.
Let me end this monkey post with a optimistic :-) as my laptop will collapse soon again :jumping:

_/\_
with loving kindness
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:02 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:11 pm

Retro,

Are you saying that The Theravada is a dead practice? That no modern understanding, in light of modern scientific discovery of what Buddha taught is to be allowed into any conversations/posts? Are you saying that there will never be any new information presented in commentaries written in respected Buddist literature such as Access to Insight by learned Buddhist scholars? If so, what is the point of The Commentaries by Buddhist scholars?

With deepest respect for a very old and honored friend in The Dhamma.

_/\_Ron
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

chownah
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Re: Plant Life

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:18 pm

Last edited by chownah on Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:24 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Plant Life

Postby chownah » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:30 pm


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Ron-The-Elder
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Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:02 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

Individual
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Re: Plant Life

Postby Individual » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:14 pm

The best things in life aren't things.


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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:31 pm

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
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Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:37 pm

A discussion of sentience:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

alan
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Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: Plant Life

Postby alan » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:41 am

Show us a Sutta that ascribes sentience to plants or forever hold your peace.

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Sherab
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Sherab » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:58 am

My speculation:
If a being has the ability of being conscious of its consciousness, it is sentient. If not, then not and any reaction to stimuli is merely automatic, like a computer program.

In Buddhism, it is only sentient beings that cycle through various existence as karma is only possible when there is consciousness of one's consciousness. Since plants are not said to accumulate karma and cycle through various existence, from the Buddhist point of view, plants are non-sentient.

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Hanzze
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Re: Plant Life

Postby Hanzze » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:20 am

Dear friends,

I would wounder if the Buddha had differenced between kind of living being. Where does the Deva has its brain? One have a higher developed consciousness one a lower. Would a Deva or a god call human lower kind of beings when understanding the Dhamma?

I would wonder if there is a original Sutta which classifies beings as worthier or to ignore. It is a poor way to make something acceptable for the sake of an other kind of let us stay in the circle of live.

Even from evolution we know where we are origin from. The man living with nature does not forget one aspect of his karma, also if it may be only a far far relative.

But please let us know the the perspective of Buddhist and then we may walk to that what was taught and the Dhamma as empty as it is and should be if we what to integrate as the path for liberation.

So what is the Sutta a Buddhist is revering to that there is something that divides beings?
Just that! *smile*


BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Nate sante baram sokham _()_

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Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
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Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:13 am

Last edited by Ron-The-Elder on Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1885
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: Plant Life

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:29 am

What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.


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