Debts

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.

Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:46 pm

farmer wrote: Perhaps the OP should ask what effect bankruptcy would have on his practice.


write off debts and allow to ordain to lead a holy life. Angulimala killed 999 people, which is much wrong than bankruptcy IMHO.

Would he be burdened by remorse? Guidance from a wise friend could be very helpful, since it is easy to be deluded about this sort of thing.


For big banks, few million$ (or $100K) dollars is almost peanuts. No hurt here. Poor economy can bankrupt even a good business, and it is not the business owner's fault that economy tanked in 2008 caused the business to go seriously into debt.


As I grow older, I understand more and more that it is hard to live really idealistic life in this material world. It is eat or be eaten. The law of the jungle. Its just how samsara works. Remorse is weakness and will allow others to tramp over you, materially at least. If one is nice, then others will walk over you. "You are nice, so you obliged to me. Aren't you? Your a good guy, right? If so, be a good guy and give me...."


This is one of the reasons why monk's life is so much better. You don't need to do most of worldly stuff. The worldly life is almost a trap. They make you take as much debt on you as possible, so you would pay off accrued interest and principle for the rest of your life to feed fat cats. What's so good about it?

It is almost impossible not to be in debt, even if this debt is "only" a mortgage with interest, of course.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Debts

Postby Alex123 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:31 pm

farmer wrote:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?"

"Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward."


Perhaps the OP should ask what effect bankruptcy would have on his practice. Would he be burdened by remorse? Guidance from a wise friend could be very helpful, since it is easy to be deluded about this sort of thing.


One may have a lot of remorse if one doesn't ordain, so that one would pay off one's debts. Now that could bring a lot of remorse and regret! Life shouldn't be lived to pay money to others in place of holy life of a monk.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
User avatar
Alex123
 
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: Debts

Postby farmer » Tue Jan 18, 2011 9:45 pm

One may have a lot of remorse if one doesn't ordain


Quite true. My post wasn't intended to come down on one side or the other of the OP's dilemma, only to suggest a framework in which to consider the question.
farmer
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Debts

Postby appicchato » Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:25 am

If one is able to legally, repeat, legally, absolve one's self of monetary obligation, which seems to be possible (through bankruptcy, or other channels, and IS done everyday somewhere), where's the problem?...one might say perseverance in finding that (or a) channel is the order of the day...it really is a jungle...
User avatar
appicchato
 
Posts: 1582
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: Debts

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:20 am

Hello Ven. Appicchato,

I understand that the OP is covered by the laws of England.

''When my bankruptcy ends will I be free of all my debts?

NOTE: If you have serious problems with debt and are considering bankruptcy, it is important that you seek professional advice before doing so.

When you are discharged from bankruptcy, you will be released from most, but not all, of your debts. For those debts that are wiped clean, creditors will no longer be able to pursue you for any outstanding amounts.

Debts that you will not be released from are:
1. any money you owe under court proceedings - for example for child maintenance or debts arising from any personal injury claims against you - unless the court directs otherwise

2. court fines or debts arising from fraud and certain other crimes

3. student loans

4. mortgage payments and other secured loans - secured creditors still have the right to enforce or recover their security if payments are not met

5. debts that you have incurred after your bankruptcy order was made

If you are making payments under an income payments order or another agreement you must also continue to make these payments even after you are discharged.

It's also important to note that when you are discharged, any assets that the official receiver or the trustee held or claimed during your bankruptcy are not returned to you.

Your trustee will still have title to your assets and will seek to sell them in a bid to pay back as much as possible to your creditors even after your 12 months as a bankrupt are up. And this could take several years. During this time you may be required to make payments from your earnings to your trustee.

Your most important asset is likely to be your home, or your share of it if it is jointly owned. If it has not been sold within three years of you being declared bankrupt, it will be returned to you unless your trustee has applied for an order to prevent it being returned.''
http://www.bankrupt.co.uk/Bankruptcy-Debts.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7492
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:27 am

Thanks for your usual attention to the actual facts of the matter Chris.
:anjali:
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:45 pm

Bankruptcy is a matter for consultation with a bankruptcy attorney. The net results of the action can be estimated with their help. Yes there are all sorts of risks and considerations.

Nice to see a second opinion from Ven. Appicchato. I think that leaves the possibility open.

(and Peter one step closer to a tasty snack of deep-fried web pages with a little sea salt LOL)
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1748
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:03 pm

I think not Kirk5 unless Ven Appichatto is on the team of elders that hears Ashtangas case for ordination.

Incidentally i think you are not giving sufficient emphasis to the difference between UK And US law here.
There are no Bankruptcy attorneys in the UK see Cooran's links above.
Bankruptcy application are heard by a Tribunal who seldom discharge from total debt.
I wont be reaching for the seasalt just yet....particularly as it appears that a change of heart about the whole thing may be detectable....
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:29 pm

Interesting that we can base an aspiring monk's ordination on Western law.
User avatar
andre9999
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:49 pm

Isnt it more that the Sangha has to recognise the differing laws of the land ? And different legal processes ?
For example if a trust is set up to purchase or lease property for the Sangha in the UK it will be a different process to that of the US or Russia...the Vinaya has to accomodate those differences .
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:20 pm

"I tell you, monks, there are two people who are not easy to repay. Which two? Your mother & father. Even if you were to carry your mother on one shoulder & your father on the other shoulder for 100 years, and were to look after them by anointing, massaging, bathing, & rubbing their limbs, and they were to defecate & urinate right there [on your shoulders], you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. If you were to establish your mother & father in absolute sovereignty over this great earth, abounding in the seven treasures, you would not in that way pay or repay your parents. Why is that? Mother & father do much for their children. They care for them, they nourish them, they introduce them to this world. But anyone who rouses his unbelieving mother & father, settles & establishes them in conviction; rouses his unvirtuous mother & father, settles & establishes them in virtue; rouses his stingy mother & father, settles & establishes them in generosity; rouses his foolish mother & father, settles & establishes them in discernment: To this extent one pays & repays one's mother & father."

Now multiply that with all the parents you have had in samsara...

Try getting ordained now.
:rolleye:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
rowyourboat
 
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:32 pm

PeterB wrote:I think not Kirk5 unless Ven Appichatto is on the team of elders that hears Ashtangas case for ordination.

Incidentally i think you are not giving sufficient emphasis to the difference between UK And US law here.
There are no Bankruptcy attorneys in the UK see Cooran's links above.
Bankruptcy application are heard by a Tribunal who seldom discharge from total debt.
I wont be reaching for the seasalt just yet....particularly as it appears that a change of heart about the whole thing may be detectable....

Unfortunately you are responsible for making your unsupported generalized claim, as is your habit. As to the claim that there are no bankruptcy attorneys in the UK. Seriously. Took me 5 seconds to Google a list.

"If someone in Ashtangas present position gets ordained in a mainstream Theravadin Sangha I will download and eat this page."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1748
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:49 pm

There are no attorneys AT ALL in the UK legal system.. Except for the Attorney General and that is political appointment...you are comparing apples and oranges...The claim that bankruptcy cases are settled by TRIBUNAL with input from SOLICITORS ..who have a very different role and training to US attorneys, is not an unsubstantiated claim, just a matter of fact. The outcome of this process is as detailed by Cooran above.

For reasons that are not clear to me you seem to have a lot of emotional investment in the discussion...which doesnt make for a productive discussion..
.I will up the anti. If Ashtanga in the next two years is ordained in a Theravada Sangha I will donate £ 100 or the dollar equivilent to a charity of your choice....guaranteed. It has to be a recognised charity.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:06 pm

Ok so there are bankruptcy "solicitors and lawyers" not "attorneys," I guess, and they work a bit differently than in the US. Totally beside the point, which is to obtain the "professional advice."

Emotional investment. No, doesn't matter to me! Just responding to the thread, why are you now claiming that I'm being "emotional" about it? Remember the other thread you started about not assuming an emotional stance from how someone posted? I think the thread has been quite productive from the standpoint of getting a start on answering the OP's question. Not definitive, but we've got opinions from two Bhikkhus, a variety of info on bankruptcy and an exploration of the ethics of the whole thing.

Anyway, your new ante has a narrower scope than the old. But ok. If Ashtanga is ordained you can donate the money to the monastery he joins.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1748
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:14 pm

Gladly.
And they work a lot differently from attorneys in the US...Within a non adverserial system. The whole point of bankruptcy in the UK is that it aims to reach a settlement ... which almost always involves paying off so much in the pound.
Among my patients I have a number who are depressed partly for financial reasons, and I have to prepare statements for the Courts to shape judgements towards the settlement of their debts.
In the US it is more adversarial with attorneys on both sides going for the maximum or minimum depending on which side they represent.
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby andre9999 » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:23 pm

In order to make it fair, shouldn't Kirk have to give money to a monastery if he doesn't get ordained? :)
User avatar
andre9999
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:04 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI, US

Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:33 pm

andrer9999 wrote:In order to make it fair, shouldn't Kirk have to give money to a monastery if he doesn't get ordained? :)

LOL well this isn't a "wager" that was totally Peter's idea. I don't see any certainty there. I just think it may be possible. It may not be. But ok anyway, I am happy to donate $100 to a monastery of Peter's choice if it does not happen. Which is not the same as saying I'm betting it will. Let's just call it straight up dana. Good thing I have a smartphone, lets see Jan 19 2013... check if Ashtanga is ordained hehehe
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1748
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Debts

Postby PeterB » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:36 pm

No ...it wasnt a wager...dont feel you need to Kirk5a... ;) Anyway it would be unfair to you.....
PeterB
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Debts

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:40 pm

PeterB wrote:No ...it wasnt a wager...dont feel you need to Kirk5a... ;) Anyway it would be unfair to you.....

Oh it would be my pleasure. Go ahead and pick one now, who knows where we'll be in 2 years.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
kirk5a
 
Posts: 1748
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Debts

Postby फ़िलिप् पुअषुंद » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:41 pm

In this part of the world, when people say they can't survive without getting into debt, or they can't pay off their debt, this is often an error based on incorrect assumptions implanted into our minds by society, TV, friends, enemies.

Do you need to spend $500 a month on food, or can you maybe live a healthier life eating mainly brown rice and simple vegetables?
Do you need to commute to your office job in a monster truck, or could you ride the bike or the bus?
Do you need to live in a house that is representative enough to preempt negative comments from your friends, or can you just rent a room from an individual?
Do you need to spend $4 a day on coffee? That's over $1000 a year.
How about that $10 lunch every day? Is it truly impossible to bring your own lunch at a fraction of the cost, or is it maybe just inconvenient?
Does your place need to be 80°F in the winter and 65°F in the summer? Would it kill you to have it the other way round?
Do you need $2000 worth of new clothes every year, or can you get used clothes and continue wearing them even when they don't impress the girls/boys anymore?
Do you need a really pretty phone with high speed streaming video and unlimited text messaging?

I don't know how many people who read this actually pay to be harmed, but it can't hurt to mention some of the more absurd ways we Westerners often spend money:

Some people pay thousands of dollars a year to buy cigarettes, which hurt them and others who breathe in their vicinity.
Some of us pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars a year to purchase TV programming, whose consumption dulls the mind and cultivates desire and fear.
Some pay hundreds or thousands for a large TV set to try to amplify the effect described in the previous item.
Some go out to listen to music so loud it damages their ears, and they pay to get into those places.

I realize this post may sound negative, but I believe the best way to address the problem that is debt is to try to understand how your own desire leads into debt before you start trying to blame others or to find an easy way out of the negative consequences of an unskillful approach to the material side of life.

It's true, banking and the related scams, such as fiat money, are a danger to all, but the only true solution is to understand how not to fall into the trap in the first place and how not to fall deeper into it if you have already started to be trapped. Once you have abandoned the mindset of credit being a "necessary evil," of trying to "manage" it, of "this time is different," then a true solution, not another quick fix, often appears on its own.
फ़िलिप् पुअषुंद
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:44 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Ordination and Monastic Life

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests