Question on laity and stream-enterers

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marcussorno
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Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by marcussorno »

Hello all.

Please forgive if this has come up before but the forum search function was failing me and I am too new to Theravada to know where to look in the Pali canon. Totally ignoring how difficult it likely is, can a house-holder/laity attain stream-entry or is this something only permissible to monks? I had heard that it was possible from a friend, but he is not buddhist and he was basing his opinion on a guesstimate.

If this has come up before on the forum, I do apologize and if someone could give me links to prior discussion or links to passages in the Pali to refer to concerning this issue, it would be greatly appreciated.
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Reductor
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Reductor »

I do believe the traditional view is that stream-entry, once-return and non-return are possible for a lay person. Arahant requires the supporting conditions that come with renouncing the household life, ie you need to be a monk or nun.
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marcussorno
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by marcussorno »

Thank you for that information! Very much appreciated. If you know where, could you assist in helping me locate that information in the Suttas or accompanying texts?

Again, thank you very much! :bow:
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Reductor »

Hmm. I don't think its stated explicity in the canon anywhere that a lay person cannot attain arahantship. The commentaries should have it, but I'm not sufficiently read-up on them to point you to a specific passage.

This states that lay persons have attained the other levels of awakening.
The layman Sudatta, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters (self-belief, doubt, and faith in the efficacy of rituals and observances), and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, has become a once-returner and is bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world.

The laywoman Sujata, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters has become a stream-enterer, and is safe from falling into the states of misery, assured, and bound for Enlightenment.

The layman Kakudha, Ananda, through the destruction of the five lower fetters (that bind beings to the world of the senses), has arisen spontaneously (among the Suddhavasa deities), and will come to final cessation in that very place, not liable to return from that world.

“So it is with Kalinga, Nikata, Katissabha, Tuttha, Santuttha, Bhadda, and Subhadda, and with more than fifty laymen in Nadika. More than ninety laymen who have passed away in Nadika, Ananda, through the destruction of the three fetters, and the lessening of lust, hatred, and delusion, have become once-returners and are bound to make an end of suffering after having returned but once more to this world
http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh067-p.html#PARTTWO" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Kenshou »

Suffice to say that lay arahantship would be really hard to accomplish and require a huge amount of personal responsibility, moreso than in the restricted monastic lifestyle with it's fewer possibilities to go astray.
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

A couple of Threads mentioning Lay Arahants from dhammastudygroup:

This one from the Kathavatthu (Points of Controversy), the Abhidhamma text.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/56007" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This one from the Questions of King Milinda
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/56064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It may be worth reading the responses at the foot of each post.

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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by rowyourboat »

Visakha, Mahanama, Citta, Hattaka Alavaka are well known examples from the cannon. You can see their suttas in the 'proper names' section of http://www.accesstoinsight.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Best of luck!

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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Parth »

There are several cases of stream entrants and once returners being lay persons. My understanding is that on reaching the Anagami path the gross fetters all get broken and the self gets highly diluted therefore to live a worldly life becomes difficult and even if one lives in household it is much like a monk. Here is a story which people can read, very inspirational:

http://www.vridhamma.org/Teachers-1.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Kenshou »

Just a thought, I would think that lay life would get easier as one progresses. Less craving and delusion, less dukkha, less ego, less problems caused. If that (partial) awakening can't deal with daily duties, what kind of awakening is that? Even monks have work to do.

But then again the life they live is also a factor, not every lay life is the same. Though it makes sense to me that the lay livelihood of a non-returner would in all likelihood be simpler than that of a different person.
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by rowyourboat »

Kenshou wrote:Just a thought, I would think that lay life would get easier as one progresses. Less craving and delusion, less dukkha, less ego, less problems caused. If that (partial) awakening can't deal with daily duties, what kind of awakening is that? Even monks have work to do.

But then again the life they live is also a factor, not every lay life is the same. Though it makes sense to me that the lay livelihood of a non-returner would in all likelihood be simpler than that of a different person.
Hi Kenshou,

The Buddha said repeatedly that what he taught was not how to make your lay life easier, but the ending of suffering. Be clear what you are practicing for.

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Kenshou
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Kenshou »

I never suggested otherwise. But thanks for your unneeded advice.

My line of thinking is merely that the more one progresses the more one's suffering will be reduced, and so life will be able to be handled with a bit more ease.

Edit: grammar.
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by budo »

I would think it would depend on the lay person, and it would depend on the monk. A few monks I know just do plain work all day as if it's a full time job, and barely meditate, they may as well be lay persons. Similarly there are lay persons who meditate for many many hours a day, and practice volunteering and charity. So the "title" doesn't mean anything. It's up to the person. The purpose of monasticism is to be in an environment that cultivates the path all the time, but this is not always reality.
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Vepacitta »

Man, I can't remember which suttas - they are in the Majjhimina Nikaya and the Samyutta Nikaya - lay people can go all the way to non-returner.

According to the suttas the lay folks who did realise Nibbana either ordained or died within a few days.

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rowyourboat
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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by rowyourboat »

I think lay life does become easier because you can see through the delusion of what society projects on you as 'happiness' and 'success'. Lay life becomes harder in the sense that it becomes harder to subscribe to that delusion whole-heartedley.

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Re: Question on laity and stream-enterers

Post by Parth »

I would presume that lay life becomes more difficult, for your goal would become different from that of those around you and even though you can understand their point of view but they can't understand yours. The people around you would still rejoice in social gatherings etc which you do not appreciate. The moral values also can be very different, think of a sakdagami in a place where only non veg is eaten. The life that you yearn for the material society may not allow, to this extant actually life would become more difficult from sotapanna onwards.

You are not free but not entirely caught up either. It can be a very different sort of pain.

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