Craving: The Origin of the World?

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Sacha G
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Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Sacha G »

Hi
It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
:reading:
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by rowyourboat »

Sacha G wrote:Hi
It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
:reading:
Quantum mechanics say that the fact of observation seems to bring the universe into existence. In Buddhism this is known as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa and nama-rupa paccaya vinnana. Consciousness gives rise to mental and material phenomena and vice versa.

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Viscid
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Viscid »

Sacha G wrote:For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
:reading:
And recall that the trees, mountains, sun, moon and stars are all interconnected and without intrinsic identity.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Ceisiwr »

The Buddha defined the "world" as the six sense bases, essentially he meant the personal or inner world, not the earth or universe etc


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Goofaholix »

Sacha G wrote: It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
By Whom?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Sacha G
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Sacha G »

Hi
The 6 internal bases and the 6 external bases are said to constitute the world.
But the external bases designate what is outside of the body (at least for the 5 physical bases).
For example the body is the internal base for touch, and tactile objects (such as earth, fire, air) are the external base.
All the perceptions, which we consider our interior world, are part of the mental external base, i.e, mental objects.
So this still leaves the question open.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by appicchato »

The origin of the world is one of the imponderables the Buddha advised against pondering...
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Individual »

appicchato wrote:The origin of the world is one of the imponderables the Buddha advised against pondering...
:goodpost:
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Sacha G
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Sacha G »

Actually it's whether the world has a beginning or not. This is different from the origin of the world, or the "origination" of the world if you prefer. The suttas explicitly define craving as the origin or the condition for the arising of the world.
I also remind you that suffering and the world are two synonyms within the canon.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sacha G wrote:Actually it's whether the world has a beginning or not. This is different from the origin of the world, or the "origination" of the world if you prefer. The suttas explicitly define craving as the origin or the condition for the arising of the world.
I also remind you that suffering and the world are two synonyms within the canon.
:group:


And the Buddha used the term "world" as referring to the experience of the six sense bases, as linked above and not Earth, universe etc
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Individual »

clw_uk wrote:
Sacha G wrote:Actually it's whether the world has a beginning or not. This is different from the origin of the world, or the "origination" of the world if you prefer. The suttas explicitly define craving as the origin or the condition for the arising of the world.
I also remind you that suffering and the world are two synonyms within the canon.
:group:


And the Buddha used the term "world" as referring to the experience of the six sense bases, as linked above and not Earth, universe etc
I'm not very well-versed on the Classical Theravada point-of-view, so maybe it's bad for me to speculate here. It would be great if somebody like Mikenz, Cooran, or Ben could clarify whether what's been said here is correct or not.

As I understand it, even speculating about the ultimate origination of the world falls under the imponderable too.

The Buddhist understanding of the origin of the world is understood in Dependent Origination, which is a cycle... which is described in some cases as a non-linear cycle (where there's no beginning; each rebirth is a basis for a new form of ignorance) and as a linear cycle (in which ignorance, avijja, is the very beginning and there is nothing to find behind this ignorance). The origin of the world is also described in the Agganna Sutta in which it is an infinitely repeating cycle of cosmological expansion and contraction; there is no particular "first cause" that can be found. The idea of a first cause, like monotheistic creationism, contradicts dependent origination by positing a cause which does not arise in dependence on other causes.

By asking, "What is the origin of the world?" you're asking a question that has no answer, because every origination is dependent; it has other things it also came from. It will lead to madness if you speculate about this too much for obvious reasons. You want to go insane because you think the universe is an infinite repetition? Or you think you can find the origin of this universe's expansion, the origin of that, and that, that, that, etc..? Eventually, there's a point you have to let the question go because it's impractical and useless.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Individual »

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el102.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A few observations now, on the first link of avijja or ignorance. When it is said the Ignorance is the first link, it does not mean that Ignorance is the first cause of existence. The Buddha has definitely said that the first cause, the ultimate origin of things is unthinkable, Anamataggayam sansaro, pubba-koit na paññayati, "Beginningless, O monks, is this course of existence. A starting point is not to be found."
The best things in life aren't things.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I'm not very well-versed on the Classical Theravada point-of-view, so maybe it's bad for me to speculate here. It would be great if somebody like Mikenz, Cooran, or Ben could clarify whether what's been said here is correct or not.

I linked two Suttas

"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The world we create in the mind, not the external universe



"that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world - this is called the world in the noble ones discipline"

SN - 1190 - book of the six sense media
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Also

[When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Also

It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Contacts Sixfold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named "Contacts Six Fold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue ... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life."

Khana Sutta - SN
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Ben »

Dear members

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