Craving: The Origin of the World?

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Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Sacha G » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:45 pm

Hi
It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
:reading:
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:28 pm

Sacha G wrote:Hi
It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
:reading:


Quantum mechanics say that the fact of observation seems to bring the universe into existence. In Buddhism this is known as vinnana paccaya nama-rupa and nama-rupa paccaya vinnana. Consciousness gives rise to mental and material phenomena and vice versa.

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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Viscid » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:32 pm

Sacha G wrote:For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
:reading:


And recall that the trees, mountains, sun, moon and stars are all interconnected and without intrinsic identity.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:28 pm

The Buddha defined the "world" as the six sense bases, essentially he meant the personal or inner world, not the earth or universe etc


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Goofaholix » Wed Jan 19, 2011 9:00 pm

Sacha G wrote:It is said that craving is the origin of the world.


By Whom?
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Sacha G » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:59 am

Hi
The 6 internal bases and the 6 external bases are said to constitute the world.
But the external bases designate what is outside of the body (at least for the 5 physical bases).
For example the body is the internal base for touch, and tactile objects (such as earth, fire, air) are the external base.
All the perceptions, which we consider our interior world, are part of the mental external base, i.e, mental objects.
So this still leaves the question open.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby appicchato » Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:43 pm

The origin of the world is one of the imponderables the Buddha advised against pondering...
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Individual » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:14 pm

appicchato wrote:The origin of the world is one of the imponderables the Buddha advised against pondering...

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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Sacha G » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:43 pm

Actually it's whether the world has a beginning or not. This is different from the origin of the world, or the "origination" of the world if you prefer. The suttas explicitly define craving as the origin or the condition for the arising of the world.
I also remind you that suffering and the world are two synonyms within the canon.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:45 pm

Sacha G wrote:Actually it's whether the world has a beginning or not. This is different from the origin of the world, or the "origination" of the world if you prefer. The suttas explicitly define craving as the origin or the condition for the arising of the world.
I also remind you that suffering and the world are two synonyms within the canon.
:group:




And the Buddha used the term "world" as referring to the experience of the six sense bases, as linked above and not Earth, universe etc
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Individual » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:58 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Sacha G wrote:Actually it's whether the world has a beginning or not. This is different from the origin of the world, or the "origination" of the world if you prefer. The suttas explicitly define craving as the origin or the condition for the arising of the world.
I also remind you that suffering and the world are two synonyms within the canon.
:group:




And the Buddha used the term "world" as referring to the experience of the six sense bases, as linked above and not Earth, universe etc

I'm not very well-versed on the Classical Theravada point-of-view, so maybe it's bad for me to speculate here. It would be great if somebody like Mikenz, Cooran, or Ben could clarify whether what's been said here is correct or not.

As I understand it, even speculating about the ultimate origination of the world falls under the imponderable too.

The Buddhist understanding of the origin of the world is understood in Dependent Origination, which is a cycle... which is described in some cases as a non-linear cycle (where there's no beginning; each rebirth is a basis for a new form of ignorance) and as a linear cycle (in which ignorance, avijja, is the very beginning and there is nothing to find behind this ignorance). The origin of the world is also described in the Agganna Sutta in which it is an infinitely repeating cycle of cosmological expansion and contraction; there is no particular "first cause" that can be found. The idea of a first cause, like monotheistic creationism, contradicts dependent origination by positing a cause which does not arise in dependence on other causes.

By asking, "What is the origin of the world?" you're asking a question that has no answer, because every origination is dependent; it has other things it also came from. It will lead to madness if you speculate about this too much for obvious reasons. You want to go insane because you think the universe is an infinite repetition? Or you think you can find the origin of this universe's expansion, the origin of that, and that, that, that, etc..? Eventually, there's a point you have to let the question go because it's impractical and useless.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Individual » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:01 pm

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el102.html
A few observations now, on the first link of avijja or ignorance. When it is said the Ignorance is the first link, it does not mean that Ignorance is the first cause of existence. The Buddha has definitely said that the first cause, the ultimate origin of things is unthinkable, Anamataggayam sansaro, pubba-koit na paññayati, "Beginningless, O monks, is this course of existence. A starting point is not to be found."
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:06 pm

I'm not very well-versed on the Classical Theravada point-of-view, so maybe it's bad for me to speculate here. It would be great if somebody like Mikenz, Cooran, or Ben could clarify whether what's been said here is correct or not.



I linked two Suttas


"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The world we create in the mind, not the external universe




"that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world - this is called the world in the noble ones discipline"



SN - 1190 - book of the six sense media
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:18 pm

Also


[When this was said, the Blessed One responded:] "I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos."


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Also


It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a hell named 'Contacts Sixfold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is undesirable, never desirable; displeasing, never pleasing; disagreeable, never agreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life. I have seen a heaven named "Contacts Six Fold Base.' Whatever form one sees there with the eye is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable. Whatever sound one hears there with the ear... Whatever aroma one smells there with the nose... Whatever flavor one tastes there with the tongue ... Whatever tactile sensation one touches there with the body... Whatever idea one cognizes there with the intellect is desirable, never undesirable; pleasing, never displeasing; agreeable, never disagreeable.

"It's a gain for you, monks, a great gain, that you've gained the opportunity to live the holy life."



Khana Sutta - SN
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Ben » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:36 pm

Dear members

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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Goofaholix » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:28 pm

Sacha G wrote:It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???


Best to supply a Sutta reference for this kind of question rather than just begin "It is said".

The word used in this sutta is loka and as already pointed out this doesn't mean so much planet or universe, I think a better translation in this context is probably "reality".

So craving is the origin of our reality.

So of course while trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars are not things that we create you and I might create them differently in our differing experiences of reality, the point being this is a product of our craving rather than of direct perception.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Ben » Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:38 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
Sacha G wrote:It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???


Best to supply a Sutta reference for this kind of question rather than just begin "It is said".

The word used in this sutta is loka and as already pointed out this doesn't mean so much planet or universe, I think a better translation in this context is probably "reality".

So craving is the origin of our reality.

So of course while trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars are not things that we create you and I might create them differently in our differing experiences of reality, the point being this is a product of our craving rather than of direct perception.


Thank you Goof, but can you please provide some evidence that suggests your conjecture represents the Classical (Mahavihara) pov?

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:27 am

Ben wrote:Thank you Goof, but can you please provide some evidence that suggests your conjecture represents the Classical (Mahavihara) pov?

Ben


I'm not sure which stta the OP is referring to as he hasn't stated however I assume it is The Loka Sutte SN 12.44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With reference to my point on the meaning of the word loka this can be found in the Pali dictionary http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 1:824.pali
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Viscid » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:54 am

Ben wrote:Dear members

Please keep in mind the special guidelines for the Classical Theravada sub-forum when composing your responses.


arrrrg now I have to pay attention to where it's posted.
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Postby Sacha G » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:31 am

Hi
this is a classical theravada thread. In this context, the external bases are the 4 great elements and form derived from them. Especially, the tangible object are the 3 following elements : earth, air, fire. Water is said to not be tangible.
Thanissaro seems to translate "tangible objects" with "tangible sensations" which according to classical theravada (and to buddhism in my view) is wrong. "Tangible sensations" are indeed mental objects, not tangible objects.
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