Craving: The Origin of the World?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Goofaholix
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Goofaholix »

Sacha G wrote:It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
Best to supply a Sutta reference for this kind of question rather than just begin "It is said".

The word used in this sutta is loka and as already pointed out this doesn't mean so much planet or universe, I think a better translation in this context is probably "reality".

So craving is the origin of our reality.

So of course while trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars are not things that we create you and I might create them differently in our differing experiences of reality, the point being this is a product of our craving rather than of direct perception.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Ben »

Goofaholix wrote:
Sacha G wrote:It is said that craving is the origin of the world.
Now according to the theory of rebirth, I can understand that craving is the origin of the 5 personal (or internal) khandhas. But what about external phenomena? Do they also originate in craving? For example: trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars???
Best to supply a Sutta reference for this kind of question rather than just begin "It is said".

The word used in this sutta is loka and as already pointed out this doesn't mean so much planet or universe, I think a better translation in this context is probably "reality".

So craving is the origin of our reality.

So of course while trees, mountains, the sun, the moon, the stars are not things that we create you and I might create them differently in our differing experiences of reality, the point being this is a product of our craving rather than of direct perception.
Thank you Goof, but can you please provide some evidence that suggests your conjecture represents the Classical (Mahavihara) pov?

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Goofaholix
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Goofaholix »

Ben wrote:Thank you Goof, but can you please provide some evidence that suggests your conjecture represents the Classical (Mahavihara) pov?

Ben
I'm not sure which stta the OP is referring to as he hasn't stated however I assume it is The Loka Sutte SN 12.44 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With reference to my point on the meaning of the word loka this can be found in the Pali dictionary http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 1:824.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Viscid
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

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Ben wrote:Dear members

Please keep in mind the special guidelines for the Classical Theravada sub-forum when composing your responses.
arrrrg now I have to pay attention to where it's posted.
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Sacha G
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Sacha G »

Hi
this is a classical theravada thread. In this context, the external bases are the 4 great elements and form derived from them. Especially, the tangible object are the 3 following elements : earth, air, fire. Water is said to not be tangible.
Thanissaro seems to translate "tangible objects" with "tangible sensations" which according to classical theravada (and to buddhism in my view) is wrong. "Tangible sensations" are indeed mental objects, not tangible objects.
:anjali:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Ben
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Ben »

Sacha G wrote:Hi
this is a classical theravada thread. In this context, the external bases are the 4 great elements and form derived from them. Especially, the tangible object are the 3 following elements : earth, air, fire. Water is said to not be tangible.
Thanissaro seems to translate "tangible objects" with "tangible sensations" which according to classical theravada (and to buddhism in my view) is wrong. "Tangible sensations" are indeed mental objects, not tangible objects.
:anjali:
Hi Sacha

I was reading about this in Ledi Sayadaw's Manuals of Buddhism last night. Unfortunately, I don't have my book proximate to me atm, so I'll get back to you tonight (my time) hopefully.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
pt1
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by pt1 »

Sacha G wrote:Hi
this is a classical theravada thread. In this context, the external bases are the 4 great elements and form derived from them. Especially, the tangible object are the 3 following elements : earth, air, fire. Water is said to not be tangible.
Thanissaro seems to translate "tangible objects" with "tangible sensations" which according to classical theravada (and to buddhism in my view) is wrong. "Tangible sensations" are indeed mental objects, not tangible objects.
:anjali:
Sacha G wrote:Actually it's whether the world has a beginning or not. This is different from the origin of the world, or the "origination" of the world if you prefer. The suttas explicitly define craving as the origin or the condition for the arising of the world.
I also remind you that suffering and the world are two synonyms within the canon.
:group:
I think the "origin vs condition" you highlighted is an important distinction. In particular, for insight and eventual awakening, it is the issue of understanding conditioned nature of dhammas that really counts. So, speaking in terms of conditionality - rupa (metarial phenomena) can be conditioned (sometimes also translated as "produced" and even as "originated") by four causes: concsiousness (citta), kamma, nutriment and temperature. See chapter VI, paragrpahs 9-15 of A comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma for this topic in more detail.
Afaik, such things as "sun, moon, trees" etc (or rather rupas which we might conceptually designate as sun, moon, trees, etc) wold be conditioned by temperature alone - see paragraph 12 of chapter VI in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma.

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Sacha G
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Re: Craving: The Origin of the World?

Post by Sacha G »

ok thank you for this clear answer.
:bow:
Pali and Theravada texts:
http://dhamma.webnode.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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