SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Where we gather to focus on a single discourse or thematic collection from the Sutta Piṭaka (new selection every two weeks)
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Post by Nyana »

pulga wrote:the puthujjana perverts his concept of reality through his belief in a self, his personalizing it (sakkáyaditthi). For the arahant all experience is utterly impersonal, but none the less real and that includes the concepts he draws from his own lived experience.
Either you have failed to understand Ven. Ñāṇananda's commentaries already posted on this thread, or you disagree with them. At any rate, the problem with your assertions are this: deluded cognitions are deluded and are therefore of no value in ascertaining what is or isn't objectively real. An arahants cognitions are measureless and therefore there are no worldly criteria for establishing an objective basis for such cognitions. A learner's cognitions are also designated as measureless when engaged in practice. Thus there are no objective means for establishing what you are trying to propose. It's a fruitless line of investigation. It would be far more beneficial to practice the applications of mindfulness.

All the best,

Geoff
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Post by pt1 »

Ñāṇa wrote: The Abhidhammapiṭaka doesn't define conditioned phenomena as paramattha dhammā or paramattha sabhāva. The former does occur once in the Kathāvatthu but it's hardly a ringing endorsement for how this notion of paramattha dhamma later came to be applied and interpreted. Moreover, even someone like Karunadasa admits that the later ābhidhammika treatises present a realist view.

Didn't we discuss this same issue recently and Ven.Pannasikhara suggested that reading the above conclusion into the writings of Prof.Karunadasa might not be quite right?

Further, despite all the discussions, I still can't quite understand your contention that "later ābhidhammika treatises present a realist view" - I mean, if they are not denying that dhammas are conditioned, then how could they be talking realism? Realism can only apply to something that's not conditioned, no? Or am I wrong in that basic assumption? I mean, at the moment your interpretation to me seems just like interpreting Ven.Nananada as advocating nihilism...

Best wishes
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Post by Nyana »

pt1 wrote: Didn't we discuss this same issue recently and Ven.Pannasikhara suggested that reading the above conclusion into the writings of Prof.Karunadasa might not be quite right?

Further, despite all the discussions, I still can't quite understand your contention that "later ābhidhammika treatises present a realist view" - I mean, if they are not denying that dhammas are conditioned, then how could they be talking realism?
I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:
  • What emerges from this Abhidhammic doctrine of dhammas is a critical realism, one which recognizes the distinctness of the world from the experiencing subject yet also distinguishes between those types of entities that truly exist independently of the cognitive act and those that owe their being to the act of cognition itself.
He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabhāvasiddha)." This is a completely realist view. And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned." This is described by Jack Kornfield:
  • In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.
This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the Pāli canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions.

All the best,

Geoff
pulga
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Post by pulga »

... deluded cognitions are deluded and are therefore of no value in ascertaining what is or isn't objectively real. An arahants cognitions are measureless and therefore there are no worldly criteria for establishing an objective basis for such cognitions. A learner's cognitions are also designated as measureless when engaged in practice. Thus there are no objective means for establishing what you are trying to propose. Geoff
"Objectively real" is a loaded term: it implies a world common to all, which is certainly not what I was asserting with regards to rúpa.

The Ven. Ñanananda and the Ven. Ñanavira have similar ideas, but whereas the Ven. Ñanavira envisions a real world -- i.e. real from within the point of view of the individual -- devoid of self, yet with all the inherent vicissitudes that arise due to its factical nature, the Ven. Ñanananda offers us a world where everything is a mirage: the conflicting, problematic nature of the very idea of a self is de-emphasized, swept away with the world's illusion.

I do hope to read more of the Ven. Ñanananda in the coming weeks: I recently ordered his Nibbána -- the Mind Stilled. Perhaps I'll come to appreciate his ideas more as time goes by.

Take care,
pulga
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Post by Nyana »

pulga wrote:I do hope to read more of the Ven. Ñanananda in the coming weeks: I recently ordered his Nibbána -- the Mind Stilled. Perhaps I'll come to appreciate his ideas more as time goes by.
There are numerous people who appreciate Ven. Ñāṇananda's teachings who were initially inspired by the writings of Ven. Ñāṇavira. Ven. Yogā­nanda is one such person. His meetings with Ven. Ñāṇananda can be read in his Heretic Sage Series.

All the best,

Geoff
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Post by pt1 »

Thanks for your reply.
Ñāṇa wrote: I was just paraphrasing the professor's own words. Karunadasa's The Dhamma Theory: Philosophical Cornerstone of the Abhidhamma:
As I remember, the way professor's work is structured is that he presents one bit of material and then draws a conclusion, then presents another bit of material and modifies the conclusion accordingly, etc, so the entire work needs to be considered, not just bits and pieces. As I remember from previous discussions, different people interpret differently what the professor says overall, and then there's the new edition which is supposedly even less in favor of realism... In terms of more bits and pieces though - tilt collects some interesting ones in this thread that seems relevant to some extent, though I suspect you're probably familiar with most of the quotes there: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 99#p111695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ñāṇa wrote:He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabhāvasiddha)." This is a completely realist view.
Of course, I can say here - "No, it isn't." - but that won't get us far in terms of a constructive discussion, so I am kind of hoping that you can give a bit more, er, substantial (sorry couldn't find a better word here) explanation regarding realism in the face of conditionality. You do mention the consequence below, but I'm really interested in your reasoning that describes the actual cause that leads to the consequence I guess.
Ñāṇa wrote:And the inevitable consequence entailed by this realist view, wherein all conditioned dhammas are "truly existing things," is that path cognitions and fruition cognitions of each of the four paths and fruits must occur within an utterly void vacuum state cessation, which is considered to be the ultimately existent "unconditioned."
Hm, not sure what you mean by the "vacuum" thing. As I remember, during stream-entry, nibbana is said to be the object of consciousness and accompanying mental factors such as mindfulness, wisdom, etc. I don't quite understand how does that relate to a "vacuum state cessation"? Perhaps you could elaborate a bit? Thanks.
Ñāṇa wrote:This is described by Jack Kornfield:
In Mahasi’s model, enlightenment—or at least stream-entry, the first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana.... But there are a lot of questions around this kind of moment. Sometimes it seems to have enormously transformative effects on people. Other times people have this moment of experience and aren’t really changed by it at all. Sometimes they’re not even sure what happened.
This notion of path and fruition cognitions is not supported by the Pāli canon. Moreover, there are now numerous people who've had such experiences sanctioned by "insight meditation" teachers, and who have gone on to proclaim to the world that arahants can still experience lust and the other defiled mental phenomena. Taking all of this into account there is no good reason whatsoever to accept this interpretation of path and fruition cognitions. Void vacuum state cessations are not an adequate nor reliable indication of stream entry or any of the other paths and fruitions.
Well, this is sounding like "my teacher is better than yours", and even though I'm not a Mahasi student, there are some here who are, so I'd propose not to take the discussion in this direction, there's plenty already that we can discuss above.

Best wishes
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: SN 22.95: Phena Sutta — Foam

Post by Nyana »

pt1 wrote:As I remember, the way professor's work is structured is that he presents one bit of material and then draws a conclusion, then presents another bit of material and modifies the conclusion accordingly, etc, so the entire work needs to be considered, not just bits and pieces.
I am taking the entire paper into consideration, as well as an extensive survey of the relevant Pāli texts. Which is why I've already said: The Abhidhammapiṭaka doesn't define conditioned phenomena as paramattha dhammā or paramattha sabhāva. The former does occur once in the Kathāvatthu but it's hardly a ringing endorsement for how this notion of paramattha dhamma later came to be applied and interpreted. Moreover, even someone like Karunadasa admits that the later ābhidhammika treatises present a realist view. As Ven. Ñāṇananda has repeatedly pointed out, this view isn't supported by the suttas or earliest strata of abhidhamma.
pt1 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:He goes on to say that "a dhamma is a truly existent thing (sabhāvasiddha)." This is a completely realist view.
Of course, I can say here - "No, it isn't." - but that won't get us far in terms of a constructive discussion, so I am kind of hoping that you can give a bit more, er, substantial (sorry couldn't find a better word here) explanation regarding realism in the face of conditionality.
Realism has nothing to do with rejecting conditionality/causality. It has to do with the objective status one proposes with regard to form and formless phenomena. By the criteria Karunadasa presents he is quite correct in his assessment that the later ābhidhammika interpretation of the dhamma theory is a realist view.
pt1 wrote:Hm, not sure what you mean by the "vacuum" thing. As I remember, during stream-entry, nibbana is said to be the object of consciousness and accompanying mental factors such as mindfulness, wisdom, etc. I don't quite understand how does that relate to a "vacuum state cessation"? Perhaps you could elaborate a bit?
Already described quite well by Kornfield: "[T]he first taste of nirvana—comes in the form of a cessation of experience, arising out of the deepest state of concentration and attention, when the body and mind are dissolved, the experience of the ordinary senses ceases, and we rest in perfect equanimity. We open into that which is unconditioned, timeless, and liberating: nirvana."

This is a consequence of a realist view: If all conditioned phenomena are truly existent impermanent things, and nibbāna is a truly existent permanent thing, then nibbāna can only be cognized as an utter void completely independent of these so-called truly existent impermanent things.

All the best,

Geoff
Locked