The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Dmytro » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:28 pm

Hi Spiny,

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?


IMO, appropriation (upadana) is a part and parcel of the five approriated aggregates, and thus inseparable from them.

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:04 pm

Dmytro wrote:Hi Spiny,

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Thanks for the quote. Does anyone know what this section actually means?


IMO, appropriation (upadana) is a part and parcel of the five approriated aggregates, and thus inseparable from them.

Dmytro


Although this section seems to suggest that clinging / appropiation ( upadana ) arises when desire and passion are present?

"Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."

I assume that "desire and passion" here express tanha, in which case it appears to be describing the relevant section of dependent origination.

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby PeterB » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:08 pm

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
PeterB wrote:An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.


What's your point?

Spiny

Is that a reply you hold permanently in reserve Norman in case I post anything ? my point I would have thought was fairly clear, it was to thank Dymtro for HIS point..
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:36 pm

PeterB wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:
PeterB wrote:An important point...I am always grateful for your input Dymtro. We tend to drift into assuming that terms like "clinging" are self explanatory..forgetting that actually they have often been pressed into service by default.


What's your point?

Spiny


Is that a reply you hold permanently in reserve Norman in case I post anything ?


I confess I often don't understand the point you are making.

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby PeterB » Fri Jan 21, 2011 2:23 pm

Its a problem isnt it ?
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:34 am

PeterB wrote:Its a problem isnt it ?


Communicating clearly isn't always easy on these forums. :smile:

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Dmytro » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:30 am

Spiny O'Norman wrote:Although this section seems to suggest that clinging / appropiation ( upadana ) arises when desire and passion are present?

"Whatever desire & passion there is with regard to the five clinging-aggregates, that is the clinging there."


I don't find such suggestion in the section you quoted.

I assume that "desire and passion" here express tanha, in which case it appears to be describing the relevant section of dependent origination.

There's a section which expresses something similar:
"'The origination of self-identification, the origination of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which origination of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming: This, friend Visakha, is the origination of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

"'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

"The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."


As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:03 pm

Dmytro wrote:As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.


I think we're in agreement on that.

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:19 pm

Dmytro wrote:As for the Conditioned Arising in general, the important point is that 'upadana' (as any other link) may arise and cease depending on conditions, but it requires Awakening to stop these things forever. Until then they are present as tendencies. In this sense, 'upadana' (appropriation/clinging) remains part and parcel of the five appropriated aggregates.


I came across this passage in SN 22 today, it seems to describe the way in which clinging to the aggregates is overcome:

"But friend, the instructed noble disciple..does not regard form as self.
...He does not become engaged with form, cling to it, and does not take a stand on it as "my self".. ( and the same for the other 4 aggregates )
These same five aggregates of clinging, to which he does not become engaged and to which he does not cling, lead to his well-being and happiness for a long time."

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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:10 pm

Khandha Sutta: Aggregates
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1997–2010
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you the five aggregates & the five clinging-aggregates. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, are the five aggregates?

"Whatever form is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of form.

"Whatever feeling is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of feeling.

"Whatever perception is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of perception.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications are past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: those are called the aggregate of fabrications.

"Whatever consciousness is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the aggregate of consciousness.

"These are called the five aggregates.

"And what are the five clinging-aggregates?

"Whatever form — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called form as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever feeling — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called feeling as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever perception — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called perception as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever (mental) fabrications — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging-aggregate.

"Whatever consciousness — past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near — is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.

"These are called the five clinging-aggregates."
With Metta

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& Upekkha
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:58 am

Another couple of relevant passages from the Samyutta Nikaya:

SN 22.121
"And what, bikkhus, are the things that can be clung to, and what is the clinging? Form, bikkhus, is the thing that can be clung to; the desire and lust for it is the clinging there.." ( and the same for the other 4 aggregates )

SN 22.110
"When, bikkhus, having understood as they really are the origin and passing away, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five aggregates subject to clinging, a bikkhu is liberated by non-clinging, then he is called a bikkhu who is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed..."
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Re: The 5 Aggregates and the 5 Clinging Aggregates

Postby Dmytro » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:39 pm

Hi Spiny,

Spiny O'Norman wrote:"But friend, the instructed noble disciple..does not regard form as self.
...He does not become engaged with form, cling to it, and does not take a stand on it as "my self".. ( and the same for the other 4 aggregates )
These same five aggregates of clinging, to which he does not become engaged and to which he does not cling, lead to his well-being and happiness for a long time."


Thank you. Yamaka sutta, which you quoted, gives a detailed description of un-appropriation:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

As for "being engaged", this can also be described as the separation of consciousness (vinnana) and bodymind (nama-rupa), when the consciousness does not necessarily follow the alterations of mind and body:

"Here, monks, the well-instructed Ariyan disciple, who has regard for the Noble Ones, is skilled and trained in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones,... of those who are worthy, does not regard body as the self, the self as having body, body as being in the self, or the self as being in the body. Change occurs to this man's body, and it becomes different, but despite this change and alteration in his body, his consciousness is not preoccupied with bodily change... Not being full of desire and attachment, he is not worried. [Similarly with 'feeling,' 'perception,' 'the mental formations' and 'consciousness']. In this way, monks, grasping and worrying do not arise."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

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