Kamma, disease and death

[clw_uk]

How can one bring together the teaching that kamma vipaka can be the cause and condition for sickness and death on occasions with modern knowledge of genetics and bacteria etc?

[David N. Snyder]

I don't think there is any conflict. Kamma does not explain all causes. Genetics and bacteria could be the result of kamma, although that does not necessarily have to be true.

[clw_uk]

True and there are teachings that not everything is the result of a past intention, however there are suttas that say for example the reason people get sick while others do not is because of past kamma, how can this be when its just genetics or disease?

[David N. Snyder]

True and there are teachings that not everything is the result of a past intention, however there are suttas that say for example the reason people get sick while others do not is because of past kamma, how can this be when its just genetics or disease?

I believe the suttas say that some get sick (not all) because of past kamma.

But even if it were true, the genetics that caused the disease / sickness could be the ripening of some past kamma (past life, giving you that bad genetics).

[Ben]

True and there are teachings that not everything is the result of a past intention, however there are suttas that say for example the reason people get sick while others do not is because of past kamma, how can this be when its just genetics or disease?

Hi Craig

Genetics and disease can be vectors of ripening past kamma.
Kind regards

Ben

[clw_uk]

I can kinda see how genetics can be, but how can bacteria be "moved" for want of a better word to a particular body

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Craig,

Do you know about the five niyamas? It might be worth looking into them further, so as to see what factors other than kamma can influence such things.

Kamma niyama and citta niyama can have a psychomatic effect on the body, but so can other things. See also this post (viewtopic.php?f=25&t=832#p10275) that I made in the Study Group re: MN 135.

Metta,
Retro.

[Ben]

Hi Craig

There is no supernatural force or invisible hand directing the movement of beings to their respective destinations. Through our own volition, we are continually creating the seeds of our future. In the example you gave, of someone getting sick by way of bacterial or viral infection, past kammas
(be it by volitional actions, choices, words we have spoken, unwholesome thoughts we have concocted) will direct us to a future situation where we maybe in proximity to bacteria, viruses or other environmental factors that cause one or more genetic predispositions to become expressed.
Metta

Ben

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Ben,

How can such things unwittingly direct someone towards the proximity of things that may cause danger, which may well be completely unbeknownst to them? What guides or directs someone to a town where the Black Plague is going to take force within a couple of days? What guides someone to an area where an unexpected earthquake is just about to happen? What guides storms and tempest towards those individuals who are ripe for electrocution or drowning?

I'd be genuinely interested to hear an explanation that does not rely on the "invisible hand" you refer to.

Metta,
Retro.

[clw_uk]

Thanks retro, i am familiar with them


I know that one can become sick just because of natural contact with bacteria but there are occasions where it says it is because of past kamma, its this latter im addressing

Hi Craig

There is no supernatural force or invisible hand directing the movement of beings to their respective destinations. Through our own volition, we are continually creating the seeds of our future. In the example you gave, of someone getting sick by way of bacterial or viral infection, past kammas
(be it by volitional actions, choices, words we have spoken, unwholesome thoughts we have concocted) will direct us to a future situation where we maybe in proximity to bacteria, viruses or other environmental factors that cause one or more genetic predispositions to become expressed.
Metta

Ben

But direction implies that "something" knows where that bacteria is in order for you to be directed to it


What i am getting at is since kamma is mental, as in it doesnt create the physical world in any sense, how does the result of kamma include a natural event of bacteria infecting a body, what is the distinction between the natural account given and the kamma account of the same event without just saying its past kamma?


Metta

[Tex]

I can kinda see how genetics can be, but how can bacteria be "moved" for want of a better word to a particular body

I don't think the bacteria has to be moved per se, or even that we have to be directed toward it. We all encounter bacteria and viruses every day, some bacteria even live inside us all the time. But some people are physically more susceptible to bacterial infections than others, and some people are born into areas without ideal sanitation or medical care, perhaps those things could be a result of a previous life's kamma?

[clw_uk]

Thats a good point tex


So it could be that past kamma doesnt directly cause the sickness itself but say causes the conditions that are suitable for that sickness to arise, so sanitation of your community, access to healthcare, immunity, maybe even religious beliefs etc