Prayer request forum.

[Individual]

Could we have a prayer sub-forum?

[clw_uk]

I didnt think Theravadins pray?

[Individual]

I didnt think Theravadins pray?

They do, but generally without ignorant presuppositions.

Prayer in the sense of "expressing goodwill" towards another (ex: thinking I hope Dhammanando gets well", "I hope Retrofuturist gets well," etc.) is definitely a Theravadin practice.

[clw_uk]

True, i suppose it depends on what you mean by prayer since its such a broad term

My understanding is that in Buddhism or at least Theravada its only used as a secondary tool as an aid to meditation so not like the theistic religions where prayer is communication with a being or an attempt to change situations for the better

[tiltbillings]

If we are going to have something like that, let us call it something else that does not have a theistic/Christian ring to it.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Individual,

I don't see why someone couldn't already instigate such a request from within the Lounge or Personal Experience forum as they have done previously?

Generally speaking, we're reluctant to create new forums that will be virtually empty and/or lead to Dhamma Wheel becoming a labyrinthine maze of sub-forums etc. We like to see how such a restructure can facilitate discussion in a way that wasn't possible before, rather than just disperse it.

Metta,
Retro.

[Dhammanando]

Hi Craig,

I didnt think Theravadins pray?

In the Suttas (AN. ii. 164) "right praying" (sammā āyācamānā) for a monk means praying: "May I be like the venerables Sāriputta and Moggallāna!" For a nun it means: "May I be like the therīs Khemā and Uppalavaṇṇā!" For a layman it means: "May I be like the householders Citta and Hatthaka Āḷavaka!" For a laywoman it means, "May I be like Khujjuttarā and Veḷukaṇḍakī!"

The commentary to this sutta says that praying for anything other than the above is merely "wrong wishing" (micchā patthanā).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

[Ben]

Hi Ajahn

Hi Craig,

I didnt think Theravadins pray?

In the Suttas (AN. ii. 164) "right praying" (sammā āyācamānā) for a monk means praying: "May I be like the venerables Sāriputta and Moggallāna!" For a nun it means: "May I be like the therīs Khemā and Uppalavaṇṇā!" For a layman it means: "May I be like the householders Citta and Hatthaka Āḷavaka!" For a laywoman it means, "May I be like Khujjuttarā and Veḷukaṇḍakī!"

The commentary to this sutta says that praying for anything other than the above is merely "wrong wishing" (micchā patthanā).

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Does that mean as a lay-person, it is pointless to aspire to be more like Venerable Sariputta or Ven. Mahakassapa?
Kind regards

Ben

[Dhammanando]

Hi Ben,

Does that mean as a lay-person, it is pointless to aspire to be more like Venerable Sariputta or Ven. Mahakassapa?

I wouldn't read it as meaning that it would necessarily be pointless for a layperson to aspire to be more like Sāriputta, but rather as naming the most fitting exemplars for each of the four classes of follower.

This is how it is phrased in the sutta:

"Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu of faith, praying rightly, should pray thus: 'May I be like Sāriputta and Moggallāna!' These, bhikkhus, are the measure, these are the standard for my bhikkhu disciples, namely, Sāriputta and Moggallāna."

The same phrasing is repeated for the other three aspirations, replacing "bhikkhu" with "bhikkhuni" etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

[phil]

Hi Ben,

Does that mean as a lay-person, it is pointless to aspire to be more like Venerable Sariputta or Ven. Mahakassapa?

I wouldn't read it as meaning that it would necessarily be pointless for a layperson to aspire to be more like Sāriputta, but rather as naming the most fitting exemplars for each of the four classes of follower.

This is how it is phrased in the sutta:

"Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu of faith, praying rightly, should pray thus: 'May I be like Sāriputta and Moggallāna!' These, bhikkhus, are the measure, these are the standard for my bhikkhu disciples, namely, Sāriputta and Moggallāna."

The same phrasing is repeated for the other three aspirations, replacing "bhikkhu" with "bhikkhuni" etc.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

Hello Bhante

This is probably why I feel a bit confused when reciting the sublime abidings which includes "may all the devas protect you through the power of all the Buddhas/Dhamma/Sangha" towards the end. It feels like a prayer.

I'm not asking for an explanation, mind you. Just always find it a bit incongruous with the rest of the teachings. Tbe "may all beings be happy" etc doesn't feel incongruous because there is the understanding that beings can only be happy through their own deeds. But "may the devas protect you" doesn't quite fit for me. Perhaps the protection of the devas is conditional on our kamma?

Metta,

Phil

[mikenz66]

Hi Phil,

This is probably why I feel a bit confused when reciting the sublime abidings which includes "may all the devas protect you through the power of all the Buddhas/Dhamma/Sangha" towards the end. It feels like a prayer.

Which chant is that in? I'm only familiar with this version:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#sublime

Metta
Mike

[Dhammanando]

Hi Mike,

Which chant is that in? I'm only familiar with this version:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#sublime

It's part of the anumodanā chant from the Mahājayamaṅgalagāthā:

bhavatu sabbamaṅgalaṃ
rakkhantu sabbadevatā
sabba-buddhānubhāvena
sadā sotthī bhavantu te.


bhavatu sabbamaṅgalaṃ
rakkhantu sabbadevatā
sabba-dhammānubhāvena
sadā sotthī bhavantu te.

bhavatu sabbamaṅgalaṃ
rakkhantu sabbadevatā
sabba-saṅghānubhāvena
sadā sotthī bhavantu te.


May all good fortune come your way,
May all the devas protect you,
By all the power of the Buddha
May you always enjoy well-being.

May all good fortune come your way,
May all the devas protect you,
By all the power of the Dhamma
May you always enjoy well-being.

May all good fortune come your way,
May all the devas protect you,
By all the power of the Saṅgha
May you always enjoy well-being

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu

[phil]

Hi Mike

Hi Phil,

This is probably why I feel a bit confused when reciting the sublime abidings which includes "may all the devas protect you through the power of all the Buddhas/Dhamma/Sangha" towards the end. It feels like a prayer.

Which chant is that in? I'm only familiar with this version:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#sublime

Metta
Mike

It's included in the version of sublime abides you linked us too, actually, towards the end.

Thanks also, Bhante, for the reference.

OK, I think I took this thread off topic. .

Metta,

Phil